Where does one find the San Felice flour?

[tonymark]

Where does one find the San Felice flour?

[Pete-zza]

TM,

Unless you can convince the importer to give or sell you a sample quantity, or else buy a two-pallet minimum (I believe that is the minimum), I would say that your chances of getting the San Felice flour are about nil at the moment. If you can locate a commercial user of the flour, you might be able to get some from that source.

Peter

[tonymark]

OK, where do you guys get the stuff for the Sante Fe Crust thread?

[Pete-zza]

TM,

I received a small amount to play around with from pftaylor who saw the flour at Luzzo's in NYC. As you know from the Tampa Fe thread, everything is experimental at this point.

Peter

[Bill/SFNM]

OK, where do you guys get the stuff for the Sante Fe Crust thread?

Sourcing this stuff is still a little problematic. I have asked Rose at PennMac to consider carrying it. If enough people contact her, I think that may be our best approach. I understand that some people think PennMac's shipping/handling charges are a little high. I don't care. San Felice is worth it. I've baked 24+ pies already using it and can't imagine going to back to Caputo. YMMV.

Bill/SFNM

[pizzanapoletana]

Bill,

If you like that style of flour (the flour itself doesn't have the flavor of a Caputo and you can test it by doing commercial yeasted bread (tiny quantities) and compare it side by side, also by looking at colour and smell) you are better off sourcing the un-bleached - unbromated all trump (i am not sure it was all trump, but was something like that- I'll let you know later).

Or if you want to source Italian flours, Aguggiaro and Figna produce top class strong flours (not indicated for authentic ancient pizza napoletana).

There is one flour that I consider a good alternative to Caputo as it is almost (ALMOST) at the same level of flavor profile and same technical characteristic of Caputo. It is not exported at this moment.

Finally, you may want to try sourcing Caputo Red, which is more similar to San Felice, but still more indicated for room temperature (hotter) or sourcing Caputo own Manitoba flour and add it to regular Pizzeria. By doing so you may discover that what you are really looking for is a more elastic flour that may be more indicated for your methodology and environment.

Ciao

[Bill/SFNM]

Marco,

Thank you so much for the information about the various flours. Your postings on this forum have had tremendous impact on where I am today in my pizza making skills, so I will endeavor to try each of those flours as the opportunity arises.

I have seen you mention before that Caputo has a superior flavor. In my limited experience, the flavor of the pizza seems to be dependent on the culture, prep and baking considerations rather than the flour itself. I must indeed do a side-by-side test. The marvelous flavor I have been achieving  (quite by accident) with the San Felice and the Camaldoli culture is a fortuitous interesection of the characteristics of each with my environment and methodology. But this isn't magic. There must be solid reasons for this success and if I have to consume a thousand pies (the sacrifices we make in the name of art  ) , I really want to understand what is happening.

Thanks again for you suggestions.

Bill/SFNM

[tonymark]

Well I certainly have got the attention of the Gods of pizzamaking.com.

Thanks for the feedback.  I have been following the Tampa Fe Crust thread and was interested in trying some new flour.  I know I can find Caputo 00 in Atlanta, but I am not ready to commit to a 25 kg bag.  Especially since Marco recommends a warm temp for culture/rise than I can provide (~65 F) in the summer.  I do like Peter's wine cooler approach.  I will probably order the 5# bag of Caputo 00 from pennmac.

Since I have your attention, where does one acquire the Camaldoli and Ishica cultures?  I am currently using Jeff's starter.

Thanks,

TM

[Bill/SFNM]

Since I have your attention, where does one acquire the Camaldoli and Ishica cultures?  I am currently using Jeff's starter.

www.sourdo.com


Bill/SFNM

[tonymark]

Is this what you mean? Because it does not mention either type.  Is that what I get by ordering the 2 Italian cultures?
If so, I really wish they would just say on on the website! 

Italian Cultures (includes two)
Price: $16.00
We searched for Italian cultures unsuccessfully for 15 years and suddenly have two, one which has been carefully guarded and is almost impossible to obtain. They are both from the Naples area, where the first pizza was made in the 1800's, and are among the best we have ever used, consistently producing fabulous breads that are flavorful and that can be quite sour. We were told when we received them that they were different, and we confirmed that difference.  We will keep the secret, and let you determine what it is when you use them.The two cultures are packaged together with Italian recipes and instructions. Now you can bake your own traditional pizzas, ciabattas and Italian country breads using authentic Italian cultures. The recipes also have been adjusted for use in bread machines, without sacrificing flavor.

TM

[Bill/SFNM]

Yes, the two Italian cultures are Camaldoli and Ischia.

Bill/SFNM

[JPY]

Can someone get me the info for the importer of San Felice flour? Maybe I can get some samples to share. 

[pizzanapoletana]

A large part of the flavor comes indeed by the flour, if the latter is properly managed (including fermentation/maturation). In pizza you will need the wild yeast starter to enhance this basic flavor and not make the starter taste dominant as if you do that, you are making flat breads, no pizza.

I am looking forward to reading your comparative test results

[Bill/SFNM]

Marco,

I am making pizza dough today for baking on Friday. Do you think a side-by-side test comparing Caputo and San Felice using natural starter would be a fair test? I know you recommended commerical yeast for the test, but that isn't going to fit into today's plan. I'm thinking of making a a few pies using each flour.

Bill/SFNM

[pizzanapoletana]

it is not a fair test because you may get confused by the starter itself as well as the different the texture and feel in the mouth.

However, it is indeed a comparative test on taste. The thing is that if you use cold fermentation, the 2 flour will develop in a different way, and therefore it is not the flour being better then the other, but will be you that did not have "extracted the proper flavour out of it.

Scientifically there are many reasons that make a flour better then another, but trust me I would not take a firm decision on a type of flour lightly. I have tested many flours, both in a professional environment and home setting, for pizza and bread, with commercial yeast and starters (wild yeast),then I got to my conclusion.

It is also interesting to note, that none of the major pizzerias in Naples uses San Felice, even though it is produced at the outskirt of the city. If not using Caputo, they rather use a flour from Lazio or the Figna from further north.

Ciao

[Bill/SFNM]

I understand. I will do the test with starters first, but will try a test with commercial yeast next week. I've been using a combination of room temp and cold fermentation: 8-10 hours at room temp and then a day in the refrigerator and then 4 hour proof at room temp. I intend to start reducing the amount of starter and go for a room temp only ferment, but that will also have to wait for next week. Right now, I'm going to use exactly the same procedure that produced such delicious results with the San Felice.

It is hard for me to describe how delicious the San Felice pies were. I think the starter and the flour combined to bring out the best flavor of each. As I've said before, I was just lucky. It is very likely that I could never reproduce those results at sea level; and it is also possible that you and others may not like the flavor I achieved or think it very authentic.

I'll post results over in the Tampa Fe thread on Friday. Thanks for the help.

Bill/SFNM

[pizzanapoletana]

I went back and find my test notes on the San Felice. I don't want to influence anyone doing comparative test, but I will publish a summary after few members write about their experience.

[Bill/SFNM]

Marco,

In searching for a source for San Felice, I've had a chance to get input from pizza pro's here and in Italy. Everyone is telling me San Felice is an inferior knock-off of Caputo. I'm just going by what my taste buds are telling me, but it is clear you are far from alone in his position.  I'll keep plugging away anyway. Somewhere in all of the pizzas I plan to make over the next year there will be an answer.

Bill/SFNM