Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 25261 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2014, 08:46:25 AM »
This is an article on sponges by Didier Rosada.   http://www.elclubdelpan.com/es/node/2702    The sponge image is gone though.  This article shows what a poolish and sponge should look like before being incorpoated into the final dough.  http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2014, 08:46:54 AM »
Thank you for your link to where you used the sponge that collapsed fast from the high amount of yeast (that was between a classic sponge and a poolish) and your link to where you tried the poolish preferment with a small amount of yeast in JerryMac's dough.  Could you say offhand which pizza was better in the taste of the crust?
Norma,

I don't really recall which of the two versions was better. Both were adaptations of the JerryMac dough formulation as set forth in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855. That version was a one-day version using a lot of yeast and the techniques used in those versions would not be suitable for your use at market. The methods used for the other two versions that I mentioned in my last post could be adapted for use at market, although I think I would tend to go with the use of a small amount of yeast and an overnight prefermentation and a one-day cold fermentation of the final dough. That would be a Sunday through Monday scenario. Maybe this question has been asked before, but if a sponge prefermentation method were to work at market would you be permitted to make the sponge at home and bring it to market to make pizzas to be sold or would the sponge also have to be made at market under the rules of the market?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2014, 09:00:16 AM »
This is an article on sponges by Didier Rosada.   http://www.elclubdelpan.com/es/node/2702    The sponge image is gone though.  This article shows what a poolish and sponge should look like before being incorpoated into the final dough.  http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm 
Norma,

Thank you for finding those articles and especially the second one. Both are from Didier Rosada's work on this subject and, if I am not mistaken, the content was derived from the Rosada article I referenced earlier but with photos in the second article.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2014, 09:10:25 AM »
Norma,

I don't really recall which of the two versions was better. Both were adaptations of the JerryMac dough formulation as set forth in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855. That version was a one-day version using a lot of yeast and the techniques used in those versions would not be suitable for your use at market. The methods used for the other two versions that I mentioned in my last post could be adapted for use at market, although I think I would tend to go with the use of a small amount of yeast and an overnight prefermentation and a one-day cold fermentation of the final dough. That would be a Sunday through Monday scenario. Maybe this question has been asked before, but if a sponge prefermentation method were to work at market would you be permitted to make the sponge at home and bring it to market to make pizzas to be sold or would the sponge also have to be made at market under the rules of the market?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you really can't recall which of the two versions was better.  I know the JerryMac versions you used would not be suitable for market. 

Thanks also for telling me you think you would go with using a small amount of yeast and an overnight prefermentation and a one-day cold fermentation of the final dough.  I can understand that would be a Sunday through Monday scenario.  I really don't know if I would be able to make the sponge at home per food safety rules.  Baked goods without things like cheese are allowed to be made at home but I don't have a retail food license to do that at home.  I also don't think my Kitchen Aid mixer would do as good as job of the mixing of a sponge unless a sponge can be mixed by hand. I could always ask market management if I would be allowed to go into market on a Sunday.  Market management usually lets me do something like that.

Norma     
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2014, 09:16:13 AM »
Norma,

Since you have been working with Walter on this matter I will hold back for now because I don't want to confuse or distract you. However, I may play around with some numbers in the meantime to satisfy my own curiosity.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2014, 10:11:43 AM »
Norma,

Since you have been working with Walter on this matter I will hold back for now because I don't want to confuse or distract you. However, I may play around with some numbers in the meantime to satisfy my own curiosity.

Peter

Peter,

Walter and I have been corresponding to find out how there might be better flavors in pizza crusts.  Walter started his own experiment because he wanted to know if something like his preferment would give a better flavor.  Walter can tell you how he did an experiment the day before (his recent experiment he posted on) and how that the crust was too yeasty or sour for his tastes.  Walter understands more how preferments work than I do and can change things in the final dough, which I can't do.  I think Walter, I and other members would benefit if you played around with numbers and maybe came up with a formulation if you can.  I know Walter does want to get away from doing more than one day cold ferments because he does not have enough fridge space and is getting busier in his setting.

The one thing Walter and I both find interesting is that most customers can not tell the difference in a one day cold ferment to a longer dough ferment, or even when a preferment is used.

I think Walter and I would both appreciate what you are able to come up with.  I don't think you would confuse or distract Walter or me.  I think we both want to learn more.  I probably will take longer to understand things than Walter though.  :-D

Norma
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Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2014, 12:22:40 PM »
Norma:  Yes my preferment was stiff/dough like.  Your warming oven looks like a small version of mine. Peter please experiment with this if it interests you. I am a mad scientist and you are a real scientist :)   I think there is something here that can bring out good flavor in a same day dough and eliminate a lot of the hassles cold fermenting can cause small fridge space/not open 7 days a week operators.  Thanks!  Walter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 01:13:48 PM »
Norma:  Yes my preferment was stiff/dough like.  Your warming oven looks like a small version of mine. 
Walter

Thanks Water for telling me your preferment was a stiff dough.  My warming cabinet was purchased used from a business in York, Pa.  It can be used to keep many foods warms, but works well for tempering Detroit style doughs and also warming up dough balls that have not been left out on the bench long enough.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2014, 07:02:43 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough that you described in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434? I know that the thickness factor is 0.08, and the bowl residue compensation is 2%, but I don't know the number of dough balls or the size of the pizzas. Also, the baker's percents numbers in the photo are a bit blurry. Usually, I can figure out what you did but this time I am stumped.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2014, 07:26:37 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough that you described in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434? I know that the thickness factor is 0.08, and the bowl residue compensation is 2%, but I don't know the number of dough balls or the size of the pizzas. Also, the baker's percents numbers in the photo are a bit blurry. Usually, I can figure out what you did but this time I am stumped.

Peter

Peter,

I used the expanded calculation tool and put in these numbers.

Flour 100% Full Strength
Water 63% (I usually add more water)
IDY was 0.25% for the 3 day cold ferment but usually is between 0.50% to 0.55% for this time of the year
Salt Kosher 2.00%
Olive Oil 1.5%
Sugar 0.85%

TF 0.80 but I scale to 1.15 lbs. for a 16.5 pizza
Bowl residue compensation 2.0%

I have that print out sheet at market but I think it was for 20 dough balls, or it might have been 21 dough balls.  :-\  If you want me to wait until tomorrow to see how many dough balls I put in the expanded dough calculation tool I can look.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2014, 07:49:20 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I figured it out. It was 21 dough balls for 16.5" pizzas. It was the 16.5" number that stumped me since I am not used to seeing a size like that. This is what the dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (167.6%):
Single Ball:
6197.92 g  |  218.62 oz | 13.66 lbs
3904.69 g  |  137.73 oz | 8.61 lbs
15.49 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 5.14 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
123.96 g | 4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.61 tbsp | 0.54 cups
92.97 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
52.68 g | 1.86 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.28 cups
10387.72 g | 366.41 oz | 22.9 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for twenty-one 16.5" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2014, 08:32:03 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I figured it out. It was 21 dough balls for 16.5" pizzas. It was the 16.5" number that stumped me since I am not used to seeing a size like that. This is what the dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (167.6%):
Single Ball:
6197.92 g  |  218.62 oz | 13.66 lbs
3904.69 g  |  137.73 oz | 8.61 lbs
15.49 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 5.14 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
123.96 g | 4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.61 tbsp | 0.54 cups
92.97 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
52.68 g | 1.86 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.28 cups
10387.72 g | 366.41 oz | 22.9 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for twenty-one 16.5" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter

Peter,

I can understand how that 16.5" pizza size would throw you off.  Thanks for figuring out the formulation I used.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2014, 08:48:28 PM »
Norma,

What prefermentation period would you plan to use, in hours, prior to incorporating the sponge in the final mix at market? I assume that the prefermentation would take place at your home rather than at market and, if that is so, what would be the average temperature at your home during the prefermentation period? You also indicated that you wanted to make a five-pound batch of dough. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2014, 09:01:46 PM »
Norma,

What prefermentation period would you plan to use, in hours, prior to incorporating the sponge in the final mix at market? I assume that the prefermentation would take place at your home rather than at market and, if that is so, what would be the average temperature at your home during the prefermentation period? You also indicated that you wanted to make a five-pound batch of dough. Is that correct?

Peter

Peter,

I guess I would go with a prefermentation period of about 20 hrs. before the sponge would go into the final mix at market.  The prefermentation would take place at home instead of market until I would find out if I was allowed to make the sponge at market on a Sunday.  The mixing of the sponge at market on a Sunday would also depend on how the taste of the final pizzas turns out.  My home temperature usually is about 68 degrees F right now.  I would like to make a five dough ball batch if that is possible. I think doing an exercise like this is going to be quite tough on your since there will be varying temperatures and also trying to use include a sponge in the final dough.  If you want to stop now that is okay with me. 

Norma
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 09:05:03 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 09:37:56 PM »
Norma,

Your situation is tricky but I think it is worth proceeding if only to tell us whether a sponge preferment approach is viable for your case.

For the five dough ball batch you mentioned, what would be the individual dough ball weights?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 10:00:07 PM »
Norma,

Your situation is tricky but I think it is worth proceeding if only to tell us whether a sponge preferment approach is viable for your case.

For the five dough ball batch you mentioned, what would be the individual dough ball weights?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for being willing to proceed with a sponge preferment approach.  I think this might be a rough journey. 

The individual dough ball weights would be 1.15 lb.

Norma
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Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2014, 10:15:34 AM »
Here is one I started last night with IDY yeast/water/flour.   I mixed it first thing this morning,balled, boxed, and let it rise for 2 hours on the bench.  The crust was passable had a very good flavor all things considered.   It is not as good as a multi day ferment in texture.  The flavor is different than a multi day but not bad IMO.  This made 4-20 oz doug balls.  I did all the math in my head/hands, weighed it all, and plugged these numbers in the calculator.  I followed the calculator numbers below.  I say give this one a try.  I am saving some for a reheat to see how it holds up.  My previous experiments were too bread/toast like on reaheat for my liking.  The color was light and the camera always make the colors more washed out than they are.  I could not get the darker browning that comes with a multi day cold ferment.  I have had the same experience with breads and believe it is the way the flour and yeast interact in slow cold rising. Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A

« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:44:45 AM by waltertore »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2014, 10:30:30 AM »
Walter,

The preferment dough calculating tool does not do a particularly good job with preferments that include commercial yeast. When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed that tool, we considered whether it could be used or be adapted to be used with preferments with commercial yeast. We discovered that there were so many possibilities (poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, prefermented dough, etc.) that it would have been a nightmare from a programming standpoint to be able to cover them all. I mention this because I suspect that you used commercial yeast (IDY) in your poolish even though it is not shown in the output of the preferment dough calculating tool. Some people put all of the commercial yeast in the preferment but others split the total formula yeast between the preferment and the final mix. I suspect that you did the former. Is that correct? Or did you use a natural starter for the preferment. If that is the case, then what you posted would be correct.

Peter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2014, 10:44:56 AM »
Walter,

The preferment dough calculating tool does not do a particularly good job with preferments that include commercial yeast. When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed that tool, we considered whether it could be used or be adapted to be used with preferments with commercial yeast. We discovered that there were so many possibilities (poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, prefermented dough, etc.) that it would have been a nightmare from a programming standpoint to be able to cover them all. I mention this because I suspect that you used commercial yeast (IDY) in your poolish even though it is not shown in the output of the preferment dough calculating tool. Some people put all of the commercial yeast in the preferment but others split the total formula yeast between the preferment and the final mix. I suspect that you did the former. Is that correct? Or did you use a natural starter for the preferment. If that is the case, then what you posted would be correct.

Peter

Peter:  I put just a pinch of IDY in the poolish last night.  It rose fine and was not too yeasty smelling. I have been making these kinds of poolishes for bread for so long I don't measure yeast anymore with them.  I have a great pure sourdough starter that we use every week for sourdough breads. I may try putting the same weight in tomorrow with it not active.  I am aiming for flavor enhancement.  The texture of the dough was ok but not one I would want to make full time.  I wish we all could taste/smell/touch each others pizzas.  Using words to describe this stuff is a venture in who knows what  because we all have our own ideas of what taste/texture is.   I just reheated a piece.  It came out crunchy on the outside and chewy inside. Not bad but more crunchy than my normal cold fermented dough (has no oil or sugar in it).  Thanks and if you have any suggestions I welcome them.  Thanks!  Walter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2014, 05:57:22 PM »
Walter,

Since you mixed the dough this morning with the poolish IDY preferment you made last night I would say that is a very nice looking pie.  :D  Do you think there is any way there could be a better flavor with such a short ferment time, even if it was risen at room temperature for 2 hrs.  Did the dough ball open easily in that short amout of time?  To me that sounds like too short of a ferment time to produce any flavors, but what do I know.  Do you think it you would have mixed that dough, balled and boxed and then left it cold ferment for one day if there might have been different results.  I think what you experimented with was more like an emergency dough with a poolish preferment, but am not sure. 

Will be interested if you try your inactive pure sourdough starter and put the same weight in.  Are you going to add some IDY.  I wish we all could taste/smell/and touch each others pizzas too.  I agree we all have our own ideas of what taste and texture we like.   Maybe I am chasing after something I might never find in finding something that works at market.  The preferment Lehmann dough did taste better to me than my regular one day cold fermented doughs but hardly any of my customers could tell the difference.

I had thought about going against the grain of using natural starters and adding some IDY to see what would happened.  I never tried that if I recall right in a one day cold ferment.

Norma
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