Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 19249 times)

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Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2014, 06:05:37 PM »
Walter,

Since you mixed the dough this morning with the poolish IDY preferment you made last night I would say that is a very nice looking pie.  :D  Do you think there is any way there could be a better flavor with such a short ferment time, even if it was risen at room temperature for 2 hrs.  Did the dough ball open easily in that short amout of time?  To me that sounds like too short of a ferment time to produce any flavors, but what do I know.  Do you think it you would have mixed that dough, balled and boxed and then left it cold ferment for one day if there might have been different results.  I think what you experimented with was more like an emergency dough with a poolish preferment, but am not sure. 

Will be interested if you try your inactive pure sourdough starter and put the same weight in.  Are you going to add some IDY.  I wish we all could taste/smell/and touch each others pizzas too.  I agree we all have our own ideas of what taste and texture we like.   Maybe I am chasing after something I might never find in finding something that works at market.  The preferment Lehmann dough did taste better to me than my regular one day cold fermented doughs but hardly any of my customers could tell the difference.

I had thought about going against the grain of using natural starters and adding some IDY to see what would happened.  I never tried that if I recall right in a one day cold ferment.

Norma

Norma:  Yes today was an emergency dough.  It was rising really fast after an hour or so, so I put it in the fridge for an hour and the warmed it up for another hour before making.  It opened fine once it was warmed up and the flavor was definetly better than if it was just a IDY only emergency.  I will make another poolish tonight and give the finished dough a 24 cold ferment tomorrow.  I weighed out the sourdough starter (inactive) before I left today and will add it to the dough tomorrow and cold ferment it as well.  I will also make a 24 hour dough with just IDY.  So I will have 3 different - 24 hour cold ferments going tomorrow so I can bake them all off Wed.  If you add commercial yeast to a sourdough starter it will kill most of the sourdough flavor.  I will not add any because the main dough will have IDY in it.  To be continued!   Walter


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2014, 06:42:31 PM »
Norma:  Yes today was an emergency dough.  It was rising really fast after an hour or so, so I put it in the fridge for an hour and the warmed it up for another hour before making.  It opened fine once it was warmed up and the flavor was definetly better than if it was just a IDY only emergency.  I will make another poolish tonight and give the finished dough a 24 cold ferment tomorrow.  I weighed out the sourdough starter (inactive) before I left today and will add it to the dough tomorrow and cold ferment it as well.  I will also make a 24 hour dough with just IDY.  So I will have 3 different - 24 hour cold ferments going tomorrow so I can bake them all off Wed.  If you add commercial yeast to a sourdough starter it will kill most of the sourdough flavor.  I will not add any because the main dough will have IDY in it.  To be continued!   Walter

Water,

Thanks for telling me it was an emergency dough today.  Looking forward to see what happens with your three experiments.

I thought adding some IDY to a sourdough starter would kill most of the sourdough flavor, but was not sure.

Norma
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2014, 12:53:24 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth below a dough formulation for you to consider that makes use of a sponge preferment. That formulation is a conversion of the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 to a sponge format.

As you can see, I was able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the formulation. However, it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include the IDY in the sponge Preferment and to adjust the IDY in the Final Dough (as shown below) and to get all of the numbers to line up. In retrospect, it would have been far easier to leave out the IDY component of the sponge Preferment, like Walter did, and to simply state what the amounts of IDY should be in the sponge Preferment and in the Final Dough. However, I wanted you to see exactly how all of the numbers look so that you can make similar adjustments at a later date should the formulation presented below be useful but still need adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of getting around the need to do a fair amount of math calculations whenever basic variables are changed, whether it is the amount of the sponge Preferment, the temperature of the prefermentation, or the duration of the prefermentation period, or any combination thereof.

As background, I used the following assumptions:

1.   The dough batch is enough to make five dough balls, each weighing 1.15 pounds (18.4 ounces), for a total of 92 ounces.
2.   The bowl residue compensation is 2%. For scaling purposes, 18.4 ounces should be used for each of the five dough balls.
3.   The room temperature during the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 68 degrees F.
4.   The duration of the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 20 hours.
5.   The temperature of the water used to make the sponge Preferment is 60 degrees F (per Didier Rosada).
6.   The sponge Preferment is 65% of the total formula water of 1000.02 grams (based on Rosada).
7.   The hydration of the sponge Preferment is 63%, which is the same as for the dough formulation given in Reply 1805 cited above.
8.   The sponge Preferment percent of water is 38.6503% (this number is used in the preferment dough calculating tool).
9.   The thickness factor that corresponds to a 16.5” pizza using 18.4 ounces of dough is 18.4/(3.14159 x 8.25 x 8.25) = 0.08605.
10. The flour used is the Full Strength flour, the salt is Morton’s Kosher salt, and the oil is the Lira Olive Pomace Oil.
11. Upon completion of the Final Dough and dividing and scaling, the dough balls will be subjected to a period of cold fermentation.

You will note that, as Walter has stated, there is not much yeast (IDY) used in the sponge Preferment. It comes to 1/16 teaspoon of IDY. That is convenient because it is a standard mini-measuring spoon that is called “pinch”. The amount of IDY to use in the Final Dough is also a convenient value. It is a bit more than 1 ¼ teaspoon.

You will also note the 63% hydration of the sponge Preferment. That should yield a texture like the Final Dough into which it is to be incorporated but there may be some slight differences to the extent that some of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during the period of prefermentation. Also, the Final Dough contains some oil that might lead to slight differences in extensibility.

Within the framework of sponge preferments as described by Didier Rosada, there are a myriad of possible combinations. But, even within the Rosada constraints, there would not be a lot of yeast in the sponge Preferment for the duration of the prefermentation you would be using and also the temperature of prefermentation that you would be using. I used member November’s analytical approach to adjust the Rosada prefermentation profile as set forth in the Rosada article referenced earlier in this thread to fit your particular situation.

Here is the formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):     1587.33 g  |  55.99 oz | 3.5 lbs
Water (63%):     1000.02 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 
Salt (2%):           31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):       3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):           23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):   13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:                   398.78 g | 14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs
Water:                 251.23 g | 8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
IDY:                      0.19 g l 0.0067 oz l 0.063 tsp (1/16 tsp "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
Total:                   650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   1188.55 g | 41.92 oz | 2.62 lbs
Water:                 748.79 g | 26.41 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:                     31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY:                      3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:          650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs
Oil:                       23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar:                  13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total:                    2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs  | TF = N/A

Peter
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:00:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2014, 12:57:07 PM »
Peter: Thanks so much for doing all that work!  I am excited to try your formula.   It may not be until next week because my fridge is stacking up with my own experiments.  You are a great resource/assesst to the pizza world.  If there were pizza grammy's you would be first up for one :)  Walter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2014, 02:30:52 PM »
Peter: Thanks so much for doing all that work!  I am excited to try your formula.   It may not be until next week because my fridge is stacking up with my own experiments.  You are a great resource/assesst to the pizza world.  If there were pizza grammy's you would be first up for one :)  Walter

Walter,

Thank you very much for the kind remarks but just because something looks or sounds nice doesn't mean that it is any good. Usually in cases like this, a good approach is to test the end points of the exercise. For example, the sponge Preferment quantity might be tested at 20% of the total formula water and at 80% of the total formula water. These are the two endpoints of the Rosada sponge preferment. A test at the middle of the range, at 50% of the total formula water, would also be a useful test. Hopefully, one of the tests would lead to a preference from which to proceed in future exercises. But all three tests would perhaps have to be conducted to know if there is a preference.

Peter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2014, 09:37:11 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth below a dough formulation for you to consider that makes use of a sponge preferment. That formulation is a conversion of the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 to a sponge format.

As you can see, I was able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the formulation. However, it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include the IDY in the sponge Preferment and to adjust the IDY in the Final Dough (as shown below) and to get all of the numbers to line up. In retrospect, it would have been far easier to leave out the IDY component of the sponge Preferment, like Walter did, and to simply state what the amounts of IDY should be in the sponge Preferment and in the Final Dough. However, I wanted you to see exactly how all of the numbers look so that you can make similar adjustments at a later date should the formulation presented below be useful but still need adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of getting around the need to do a fair amount of math calculations whenever basic variables are changed, whether it is the amount of the sponge Preferment, the temperature of the prefermentation, or the duration of the prefermentation period, or any combination thereof.

As background, I used the following assumptions:

1.   The dough batch is enough to make five dough balls, each weighing 1.15 pounds (18.4 ounces), for a total of 92 ounces.
2.   The bowl residue compensation is 2%. For scaling purposes, 18.4 ounces should be used for each of the five dough balls.
3.   The room temperature during the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 68 degrees F.
4.   The duration of the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 20 hours.
5.   The temperature of the water used to make the sponge Preferment is 60 degrees F (per Didier Rosada).
6.   The sponge Preferment is 65% of the total formula water of 1000.02 grams (based on Rosada).
7.   The hydration of the sponge Preferment is 63%, which is the same as for the dough formulation given in Reply 1805 cited above.
8.   The sponge Preferment percent of water is 38.6503% (this number is used in the preferment dough calculating tool).
9.   The thickness factor that corresponds to a 16.5” pizza using 18.4 ounces of dough is 18.4/(3.14159 x 8.25 x 8.25) = 0.08605.
10. The flour used is the Full Strength flour, the salt is Morton’s Kosher salt, and the oil is the Lira Olive Pomace Oil.
11. Upon completion of the Final Dough and dividing and scaling, the dough balls will be subjected to a period of cold fermentation.

You will note that, as Walter has stated, there is not much yeast (IDY) used in the sponge Preferment. It comes to 1/16 teaspoon of IDY. That is convenient because it is a standard mini-measuring spoon that is called “pinch”. The amount of IDY to use in the Final Dough is also a convenient value. It is a bit more than 1 ¼ teaspoon.

You will also note the 63% hydration of the sponge Preferment. That should yield a texture like the Final Dough into which it is to be incorporated but there may be some slight differences to the extent that some of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during the period of prefermentation. Also, the Final Dough contains some oil that might lead to slight differences in extensibility.

Within the framework of sponge preferments as described by Didier Rosada, there are a myriad of possible combinations. But, even within the Rosada constraints, there would not be a lot of yeast in the sponge Preferment for the duration of the prefermentation you would be using and also the temperature of prefermentation that you would be using. I used member November’s analytical approach to adjust the Rosada prefermentation profile as set forth in the Rosada article referenced earlier in this thread to fit your particular situation.

Here is the formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):     1587.33 g  |  55.99 oz | 3.5 lbs
Water (63%):     1000.02 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 
Salt (2%):           31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):       3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):           23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):   13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:                   398.78 g | 14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs
Water:                 251.23 g | 8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
IDY:                      0.19 g l 0.0067 oz l 0.063 tsp (1/16 tsp "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
Total:                   650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   1188.55 g | 41.92 oz | 2.62 lbs
Water:                 748.79 g | 26.41 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:                     31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY:                      3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:          650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs
Oil:                       23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar:                  13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total:                    2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs  | TF = N/A

Peter


Peter,

Thank you so much for setting forth a dough formulation for a sponge preferment.  I can understand it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include IDY in the sponge preferment and to adjust the the IDY in the final dough to get all of the numbers to line up.  I can see what the numbers look like but don't know if I will be able to make similar adjustments at a later date if needed.  I think you know how bad I am with math by now and having to do math calculations whenever basic variables are changed. 

I do see there is not much IDY used in the sponge preferment.  I do have a mini-measuring spoon that measures a pinch. 

I noted the 63% hydration of the sponge preferment.  I did not think about maybe some of the water evaporating in the sponge during the period of prefermentation.  How would I know if any water evaporated?   

What is November's analytical approach that you used to adjust the Rosada prefermentaion profile?   

I will give the dough formulation with a sponge preferment a test drive this coming week.

Norma
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2014, 10:14:08 PM »
Norma,

To know if any of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during prefermentation, you would have to weigh the storage container by itself (i.e., while empty), then with the sponge within it, which would tell you the weight of the poolish, and again at the end of the prefermentation. By subtracting the weight of the storage container from the combined weight at the end of the prefermentation period, that would tell you whether the poolish lost any weight through evaporation. Of course, you can also use the tare feature approach Also, how you cover the storage container during prefermentation can affect the degree of any losses due to evaporation.

The method that I used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol is the one that November discussed in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572 . I simply treated the sponge Preferment as though it was a regular dough. At 63% hydration, that is essentially what a sponge is.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:50:10 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2014, 10:52:18 PM »
Norma,

To know if any of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during prefermentation, you would have to weigh the storage container by itself (i.e., while empty), then with the sponge within it, which would tell you the weight of the poolish, and again at the end of the prefermentation. By subtracting the weight of the storage container from the combined weight at the end of the prefermentation period, that would tell you whether the poolish lost any weight through evaporation. Of course, you can also use the tare feature approach Also, how you cover the storage container during prefermentation can affect the degree of any losses due to evaporation.

The method that I used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol is the one that November discussed in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572 . I simply treated the poolish Preferment as though it was a regular dough. At 63% hydration, that is essentially what a sponge is.

Peter


Peter,

That makes sense what you posted in the two methods to find out if the sponge preferment loses any water though evaporation.  I will make sure I have a tight fitting cover for the sponge during prefermentation.  One other thing I don't understand is why you call a sponge a poolish.

Thanks for the link to November's method you used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol.  I understand that at 63% hydration that is essentially what a sponge is.

Norma
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2014, 07:53:14 AM »
One other thing I don't understand is why you call a sponge a poolish.
Norma,

I meant sponge, not poolish. I have corrected my post. Thanks for catching that.

Peter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2014, 12:33:36 PM »
report:  IDY poolish or whatever you call it worked the best but still not near as good as a normal 2+ day cold ferment. Flavor was marginal.   Inactive sourdough starter came out cracker like and the worst of the lot.  regular 24 hour cold ferment inbetween the other 2. All in all I would not make any of them regularly.  Next to our 2 day we used today the stunk.  I have pictures but only have a quick minute to write.  I am going to try Peter's formula and also some bulk multi day ferments.  There just seems no way around the time factor that I have found yet.  Walter

PS:  FYI I rate pizzas as really good or crap.  No inbetween.  Todays experiments were crap but my kids ate them all up.  Again I realize most people don't judge as harshly as I do. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:43:39 PM by waltertore »


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2014, 12:55:18 PM »

PS:  FYI I rate pizzas as really good or crap.  No inbetween.  Todays experiments were crap but my kids ate them all up.  Again I realize most people don't judge as harshly as I do.


Walter,

I also realize too that most people (that don't actually make pizzas or have not tasted so many different ones) don't judge pizzas as I do.

Norma
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2014, 02:16:23 PM »
Walter,

I also realize too that most people (that don't actually make pizzas or have not tasted so many different ones) don't judge pizzas as I do.

Norma

I hear you Norma.  I cringe with a less than really good pie and won't sell it.  My kids eat it.  Here are some pictures from todays experiments.  I think they are all labeled. I would nix them all with the preferment amount I used (same in both IDY and sourdough) and sent you and think published here.  Walter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2014, 05:43:38 PM »
Here are some pictures from todays experiments.  I think they are all labeled. I would nix them all with the preferment amount I used (same in both IDY and sourdough) and sent you and think published here.  Walter

Walter,

I am not sure of what pizza you used the 24 hr. cold ferment with the IDY starter.  The photos look labeled the same.  All of the pizzas look good.

Norma
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2014, 06:29:30 PM »
Walter,

I am not sure of what pizza you used the 24 hr. cold ferment with the IDY starter.  The photos look labeled the same.  All of the pizzas look good.

Norma

They all are of the IDY starter pie.  The others were not worth pictures.   Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
pinch of IDY and it sat overnight on the counter
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A

Offline dmckean44

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2014, 06:35:04 PM »
I wonder if you could blend a modest percentage of 5 day dough into fresh dough and overnight it.

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2014, 06:53:32 PM »
I wonder if you could blend a modest percentage of 5 day dough into fresh dough and overnight it.

 I have added a ball or 2 to 15 new ones that will sit for 48+ hours.  I couldn't taste any improvement. I find a 48 hour ferment is just about perfect without any added preferment or old dough.  I rarely do a 24 hour dough but will try it with some old dough in it for the heck of it.  Walter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2014, 07:30:14 PM »
They all are of the IDY starter pie.  The others were not worth pictures.   Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
pinch of IDY and it sat overnight on the counter
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A

Thanks for posting the formulation you tried Walter and telling me what the photos were.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline dmckean44

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2014, 11:59:55 PM »
I have added a ball or 2 to 15 new ones that will sit for 48+ hours.  I couldn't taste any improvement. I find a 48 hour ferment is just about perfect without any added preferment or old dough.  I rarely do a 24 hour dough but will try it with some old dough in it for the heck of it.  Walter

There's rarely a substitute for doing things right. In my years of cooking, pressure cooking is the only thing that comes to mind.

What if you just balled your 48 hour dough the day you use it? Does that save any space?

Offline scott123

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2014, 01:16:05 AM »
I am going to try Peter's formula and also some bulk multi day ferments.  There just seems no way around the time factor that I have found yet.

Walter, dough contains two kinds of ingredients- the ingredients that you add at the onset (water, yeast, flour, salt) and process derived ingredients.  The rules regarding process derived ingredients are clear cut and fairly well understood. Gluten (to a point), sugar, amino acids/flavor enhancers, alcohol and carbon dioxide are all process derived ingredients created during fermentation. You can control the amount of alcohol and gas produced over a given amount of time by either adjusting the quantity of yeast or adjusting the temperature of the dough.  The sugars and the flavor enhancers (the ingredients that make 48 hour doughs taste better) that are generated during fermentation are far less adjustable.  It's extremely difficult (possibly even impossible) to produce the same level of flavor enhancement in substantially less time. When you're doing a bulk dough, the dough is fermenting for the same 48 hours, so it has the same amount of time to generate the identical crust flavor that you're looking for, while taking up a much smaller amount of space.

Sourdough, btw, introduces an entirely different set of process derived ingredients.  The bacteria, over time, generates lactic acid and acetic acid.  These are very specific flavors- and neither bears any resemblance to the flavor enhancers generated by the enzymes in flour.  Swapping out flavor enhancers with acids would be like subbing for basil by using cilantro instead. Sure, you're adding additional flavor (depending on how active the starter is and how much time you give it), but it's not the flavor you're seeking- especially for NY style. Sourdough bread- wonderful. Sourdough Neapolitan pizza- fantastic. Sourdough NY pizza- all wrong.

A 24 hour bulk/24 hour balled IDY fermentation will give you the identical flavor to a 48 hour balled fermentation. I guarantee it.  Dough ferments faster in bulk, so it's going to take some trial and error to find the right amount of yeast, and perhaps a bit of time to master balling cold dough (or using even less yeast and finding a temperature stable area for a room temp bulk), but the science is sound and requires zero alchemy.

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2014, 06:15:40 AM »
Scott:  Thanks for that detailed reply.  You know the science behind it and I don't.  I have pretty much surrendered to figuring a quick fix.  I will try Peter's formula when I get time but other than that I agree there doesn't seem to be a way around cold fermenting dough at least 48 hours to get the color, flavor, texture, I want.  I learned with working with bread that the color also changes in the crust with cold fermenting.  The same with pizza crust.  The same day and 24 hour ferments don't give the color of the crust I am looking for.  My pictures are not realistic enough to see an obvious difference but in the flesh I can tell and Paige can tell by looking at a finished pie which one went 24 hours or less and which went 48 or more.  I am going to try the bulk fermenting.  I will go with a bit less yeast to start and really cold water.  I use really cold water with all my pizza doughes.   Thanks.  Walter

here are a couple pictures of a 5 day ferment.   We make Monday's dough on Friday and this pie sat until Tuesday.  You can really tell a visual difference in the crust from the one I posted in a previous post yesterday that was a 24 hour cold ferment with an IDY starter made the night before the dough was made if you saw them in the flesh.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:17:31 AM by waltertore »


 

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