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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2014, 10:11:43 AM »
Norma,

Since you have been working with Walter on this matter I will hold back for now because I don't want to confuse or distract you. However, I may play around with some numbers in the meantime to satisfy my own curiosity.

Peter

Peter,

Walter and I have been corresponding to find out how there might be better flavors in pizza crusts.  Walter started his own experiment because he wanted to know if something like his preferment would give a better flavor.  Walter can tell you how he did an experiment the day before (his recent experiment he posted on) and how that the crust was too yeasty or sour for his tastes.  Walter understands more how preferments work than I do and can change things in the final dough, which I can't do.  I think Walter, I and other members would benefit if you played around with numbers and maybe came up with a formulation if you can.  I know Walter does want to get away from doing more than one day cold ferments because he does not have enough fridge space and is getting busier in his setting.

The one thing Walter and I both find interesting is that most customers can not tell the difference in a one day cold ferment to a longer dough ferment, or even when a preferment is used.

I think Walter and I would both appreciate what you are able to come up with.  I don't think you would confuse or distract Walter or me.  I think we both want to learn more.  I probably will take longer to understand things than Walter though.  :-D

Norma


Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2014, 12:22:40 PM »
Norma:  Yes my preferment was stiff/dough like.  Your warming oven looks like a small version of mine. Peter please experiment with this if it interests you. I am a mad scientist and you are a real scientist :)   I think there is something here that can bring out good flavor in a same day dough and eliminate a lot of the hassles cold fermenting can cause small fridge space/not open 7 days a week operators.  Thanks!  Walter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 01:13:48 PM »
Norma:  Yes my preferment was stiff/dough like.  Your warming oven looks like a small version of mine. 
Walter

Thanks Water for telling me your preferment was a stiff dough.  My warming cabinet was purchased used from a business in York, Pa.  It can be used to keep many foods warms, but works well for tempering Detroit style doughs and also warming up dough balls that have not been left out on the bench long enough.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2014, 07:02:43 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough that you described in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434? I know that the thickness factor is 0.08, and the bowl residue compensation is 2%, but I don't know the number of dough balls or the size of the pizzas. Also, the baker's percents numbers in the photo are a bit blurry. Usually, I can figure out what you did but this time I am stumped.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2014, 07:26:37 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough that you described in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434? I know that the thickness factor is 0.08, and the bowl residue compensation is 2%, but I don't know the number of dough balls or the size of the pizzas. Also, the baker's percents numbers in the photo are a bit blurry. Usually, I can figure out what you did but this time I am stumped.

Peter

Peter,

I used the expanded calculation tool and put in these numbers.

Flour 100% Full Strength
Water 63% (I usually add more water)
IDY was 0.25% for the 3 day cold ferment but usually is between 0.50% to 0.55% for this time of the year
Salt Kosher 2.00%
Olive Oil 1.5%
Sugar 0.85%

TF 0.80 but I scale to 1.15 lbs. for a 16.5” pizza
Bowl residue compensation 2.0%

I have that print out sheet at market but I think it was for 20 dough balls, or it might have been 21 dough balls.  :-\  If you want me to wait until tomorrow to see how many dough balls I put in the expanded dough calculation tool I can look.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2014, 07:49:20 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I figured it out. It was 21 dough balls for 16.5" pizzas. It was the 16.5" number that stumped me since I am not used to seeing a size like that. This is what the dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (167.6%):
Single Ball:
6197.92 g  |  218.62 oz | 13.66 lbs
3904.69 g  |  137.73 oz | 8.61 lbs
15.49 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 5.14 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
123.96 g | 4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.61 tbsp | 0.54 cups
92.97 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
52.68 g | 1.86 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.28 cups
10387.72 g | 366.41 oz | 22.9 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for twenty-one 16.5" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2014, 08:32:03 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I figured it out. It was 21 dough balls for 16.5" pizzas. It was the 16.5" number that stumped me since I am not used to seeing a size like that. This is what the dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (167.6%):
Single Ball:
6197.92 g  |  218.62 oz | 13.66 lbs
3904.69 g  |  137.73 oz | 8.61 lbs
15.49 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 5.14 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
123.96 g | 4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.61 tbsp | 0.54 cups
92.97 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
52.68 g | 1.86 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.28 cups
10387.72 g | 366.41 oz | 22.9 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for twenty-one 16.5" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter

Peter,

I can understand how that 16.5" pizza size would throw you off.  Thanks for figuring out the formulation I used.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2014, 08:48:28 PM »
Norma,

What prefermentation period would you plan to use, in hours, prior to incorporating the sponge in the final mix at market? I assume that the prefermentation would take place at your home rather than at market and, if that is so, what would be the average temperature at your home during the prefermentation period? You also indicated that you wanted to make a five-pound batch of dough. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2014, 09:01:46 PM »
Norma,

What prefermentation period would you plan to use, in hours, prior to incorporating the sponge in the final mix at market? I assume that the prefermentation would take place at your home rather than at market and, if that is so, what would be the average temperature at your home during the prefermentation period? You also indicated that you wanted to make a five-pound batch of dough. Is that correct?

Peter

Peter,

I guess I would go with a prefermentation period of about 20 hrs. before the sponge would go into the final mix at market.  The prefermentation would take place at home instead of market until I would find out if I was allowed to make the sponge at market on a Sunday.  The mixing of the sponge at market on a Sunday would also depend on how the taste of the final pizzas turns out.  My home temperature usually is about 68 degrees F right now.  I would like to make a five dough ball batch if that is possible. I think doing an exercise like this is going to be quite tough on your since there will be varying temperatures and also trying to use include a sponge in the final dough.  If you want to stop now that is okay with me. 

Norma
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 09:05:03 PM by norma427 »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 09:37:56 PM »
Norma,

Your situation is tricky but I think it is worth proceeding if only to tell us whether a sponge preferment approach is viable for your case.

For the five dough ball batch you mentioned, what would be the individual dough ball weights?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 10:00:07 PM »
Norma,

Your situation is tricky but I think it is worth proceeding if only to tell us whether a sponge preferment approach is viable for your case.

For the five dough ball batch you mentioned, what would be the individual dough ball weights?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for being willing to proceed with a sponge preferment approach.  I think this might be a rough journey. 

The individual dough ball weights would be 1.15 lb.

Norma

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2014, 10:15:34 AM »
Here is one I started last night with IDY yeast/water/flour.   I mixed it first thing this morning,balled, boxed, and let it rise for 2 hours on the bench.  The crust was passable had a very good flavor all things considered.   It is not as good as a multi day ferment in texture.  The flavor is different than a multi day but not bad IMO.  This made 4-20 oz doug balls.  I did all the math in my head/hands, weighed it all, and plugged these numbers in the calculator.  I followed the calculator numbers below.  I say give this one a try.  I am saving some for a reheat to see how it holds up.  My previous experiments were too bread/toast like on reaheat for my liking.  The color was light and the camera always make the colors more washed out than they are.  I could not get the darker browning that comes with a multi day cold ferment.  I have had the same experience with breads and believe it is the way the flour and yeast interact in slow cold rising. Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A

« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:44:45 AM by waltertore »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2014, 10:30:30 AM »
Walter,

The preferment dough calculating tool does not do a particularly good job with preferments that include commercial yeast. When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed that tool, we considered whether it could be used or be adapted to be used with preferments with commercial yeast. We discovered that there were so many possibilities (poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, prefermented dough, etc.) that it would have been a nightmare from a programming standpoint to be able to cover them all. I mention this because I suspect that you used commercial yeast (IDY) in your poolish even though it is not shown in the output of the preferment dough calculating tool. Some people put all of the commercial yeast in the preferment but others split the total formula yeast between the preferment and the final mix. I suspect that you did the former. Is that correct? Or did you use a natural starter for the preferment. If that is the case, then what you posted would be correct.

Peter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2014, 10:44:56 AM »
Walter,

The preferment dough calculating tool does not do a particularly good job with preferments that include commercial yeast. When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed that tool, we considered whether it could be used or be adapted to be used with preferments with commercial yeast. We discovered that there were so many possibilities (poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, prefermented dough, etc.) that it would have been a nightmare from a programming standpoint to be able to cover them all. I mention this because I suspect that you used commercial yeast (IDY) in your poolish even though it is not shown in the output of the preferment dough calculating tool. Some people put all of the commercial yeast in the preferment but others split the total formula yeast between the preferment and the final mix. I suspect that you did the former. Is that correct? Or did you use a natural starter for the preferment. If that is the case, then what you posted would be correct.

Peter

Peter:  I put just a pinch of IDY in the poolish last night.  It rose fine and was not too yeasty smelling. I have been making these kinds of poolishes for bread for so long I don't measure yeast anymore with them.  I have a great pure sourdough starter that we use every week for sourdough breads. I may try putting the same weight in tomorrow with it not active.  I am aiming for flavor enhancement.  The texture of the dough was ok but not one I would want to make full time.  I wish we all could taste/smell/touch each others pizzas.  Using words to describe this stuff is a venture in who knows what  because we all have our own ideas of what taste/texture is.   I just reheated a piece.  It came out crunchy on the outside and chewy inside. Not bad but more crunchy than my normal cold fermented dough (has no oil or sugar in it).  Thanks and if you have any suggestions I welcome them.  Thanks!  Walter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2014, 05:57:22 PM »
Walter,

Since you mixed the dough this morning with the poolish IDY preferment you made last night I would say that is a very nice looking pie.  :D  Do you think there is any way there could be a better flavor with such a short ferment time, even if it was risen at room temperature for 2 hrs.  Did the dough ball open easily in that short amout of time?  To me that sounds like too short of a ferment time to produce any flavors, but what do I know.  Do you think it you would have mixed that dough, balled and boxed and then left it cold ferment for one day if there might have been different results.  I think what you experimented with was more like an emergency dough with a poolish preferment, but am not sure. 

Will be interested if you try your inactive pure sourdough starter and put the same weight in.  Are you going to add some IDY.  I wish we all could taste/smell/and touch each others pizzas too.  I agree we all have our own ideas of what taste and texture we like.   Maybe I am chasing after something I might never find in finding something that works at market.  The preferment Lehmann dough did taste better to me than my regular one day cold fermented doughs but hardly any of my customers could tell the difference.

I had thought about going against the grain of using natural starters and adding some IDY to see what would happened.  I never tried that if I recall right in a one day cold ferment.

Norma

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2014, 06:05:37 PM »
Walter,

Since you mixed the dough this morning with the poolish IDY preferment you made last night I would say that is a very nice looking pie.  :D  Do you think there is any way there could be a better flavor with such a short ferment time, even if it was risen at room temperature for 2 hrs.  Did the dough ball open easily in that short amout of time?  To me that sounds like too short of a ferment time to produce any flavors, but what do I know.  Do you think it you would have mixed that dough, balled and boxed and then left it cold ferment for one day if there might have been different results.  I think what you experimented with was more like an emergency dough with a poolish preferment, but am not sure. 

Will be interested if you try your inactive pure sourdough starter and put the same weight in.  Are you going to add some IDY.  I wish we all could taste/smell/and touch each others pizzas too.  I agree we all have our own ideas of what taste and texture we like.   Maybe I am chasing after something I might never find in finding something that works at market.  The preferment Lehmann dough did taste better to me than my regular one day cold fermented doughs but hardly any of my customers could tell the difference.

I had thought about going against the grain of using natural starters and adding some IDY to see what would happened.  I never tried that if I recall right in a one day cold ferment.

Norma

Norma:  Yes today was an emergency dough.  It was rising really fast after an hour or so, so I put it in the fridge for an hour and the warmed it up for another hour before making.  It opened fine once it was warmed up and the flavor was definetly better than if it was just a IDY only emergency.  I will make another poolish tonight and give the finished dough a 24 cold ferment tomorrow.  I weighed out the sourdough starter (inactive) before I left today and will add it to the dough tomorrow and cold ferment it as well.  I will also make a 24 hour dough with just IDY.  So I will have 3 different - 24 hour cold ferments going tomorrow so I can bake them all off Wed.  If you add commercial yeast to a sourdough starter it will kill most of the sourdough flavor.  I will not add any because the main dough will have IDY in it.  To be continued!   Walter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2014, 06:42:31 PM »
Norma:  Yes today was an emergency dough.  It was rising really fast after an hour or so, so I put it in the fridge for an hour and the warmed it up for another hour before making.  It opened fine once it was warmed up and the flavor was definetly better than if it was just a IDY only emergency.  I will make another poolish tonight and give the finished dough a 24 cold ferment tomorrow.  I weighed out the sourdough starter (inactive) before I left today and will add it to the dough tomorrow and cold ferment it as well.  I will also make a 24 hour dough with just IDY.  So I will have 3 different - 24 hour cold ferments going tomorrow so I can bake them all off Wed.  If you add commercial yeast to a sourdough starter it will kill most of the sourdough flavor.  I will not add any because the main dough will have IDY in it.  To be continued!   Walter

Water,

Thanks for telling me it was an emergency dough today.  Looking forward to see what happens with your three experiments.

I thought adding some IDY to a sourdough starter would kill most of the sourdough flavor, but was not sure.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2014, 12:53:24 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth below a dough formulation for you to consider that makes use of a sponge preferment. That formulation is a conversion of the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 to a sponge format.

As you can see, I was able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the formulation. However, it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include the IDY in the sponge Preferment and to adjust the IDY in the Final Dough (as shown below) and to get all of the numbers to line up. In retrospect, it would have been far easier to leave out the IDY component of the sponge Preferment, like Walter did, and to simply state what the amounts of IDY should be in the sponge Preferment and in the Final Dough. However, I wanted you to see exactly how all of the numbers look so that you can make similar adjustments at a later date should the formulation presented below be useful but still need adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of getting around the need to do a fair amount of math calculations whenever basic variables are changed, whether it is the amount of the sponge Preferment, the temperature of the prefermentation, or the duration of the prefermentation period, or any combination thereof.

As background, I used the following assumptions:

1.   The dough batch is enough to make five dough balls, each weighing 1.15 pounds (18.4 ounces), for a total of 92 ounces.
2.   The bowl residue compensation is 2%. For scaling purposes, 18.4 ounces should be used for each of the five dough balls.
3.   The room temperature during the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 68 degrees F.
4.   The duration of the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 20 hours.
5.   The temperature of the water used to make the sponge Preferment is 60 degrees F (per Didier Rosada).
6.   The sponge Preferment is 65% of the total formula water of 1000.02 grams (based on Rosada).
7.   The hydration of the sponge Preferment is 63%, which is the same as for the dough formulation given in Reply 1805 cited above.
8.   The sponge Preferment percent of water is 38.6503% (this number is used in the preferment dough calculating tool).
9.   The thickness factor that corresponds to a 16.5” pizza using 18.4 ounces of dough is 18.4/(3.14159 x 8.25 x 8.25) = 0.08605.
10. The flour used is the Full Strength flour, the salt is Morton’s Kosher salt, and the oil is the Lira Olive Pomace Oil.
11. Upon completion of the Final Dough and dividing and scaling, the dough balls will be subjected to a period of cold fermentation.

You will note that, as Walter has stated, there is not much yeast (IDY) used in the sponge Preferment. It comes to 1/16 teaspoon of IDY. That is convenient because it is a standard mini-measuring spoon that is called “pinch”. The amount of IDY to use in the Final Dough is also a convenient value. It is a bit more than 1 Ľ teaspoon.

You will also note the 63% hydration of the sponge Preferment. That should yield a texture like the Final Dough into which it is to be incorporated but there may be some slight differences to the extent that some of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during the period of prefermentation. Also, the Final Dough contains some oil that might lead to slight differences in extensibility.

Within the framework of sponge preferments as described by Didier Rosada, there are a myriad of possible combinations. But, even within the Rosada constraints, there would not be a lot of yeast in the sponge Preferment for the duration of the prefermentation you would be using and also the temperature of prefermentation that you would be using. I used member November’s analytical approach to adjust the Rosada prefermentation profile as set forth in the Rosada article referenced earlier in this thread to fit your particular situation.

Here is the formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):     1587.33 g  |  55.99 oz | 3.5 lbs
Water (63%):     1000.02 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 
Salt (2%):           31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):       3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):           23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):   13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:                   398.78 g | 14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs
Water:                 251.23 g | 8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
IDY:                      0.19 g l 0.0067 oz l 0.063 tsp (1/16 tsp "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
Total:                   650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   1188.55 g | 41.92 oz | 2.62 lbs
Water:                 748.79 g | 26.41 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:                     31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY:                      3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:          650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs
Oil:                       23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar:                  13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total:                    2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs  | TF = N/A

Peter
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:00:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2014, 12:57:07 PM »
Peter: Thanks so much for doing all that work!  I am excited to try your formula.   It may not be until next week because my fridge is stacking up with my own experiments.  You are a great resource/assesst to the pizza world.  If there were pizza grammy's you would be first up for one :)  Walter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2014, 02:30:52 PM »
Peter: Thanks so much for doing all that work!  I am excited to try your formula.   It may not be until next week because my fridge is stacking up with my own experiments.  You are a great resource/assesst to the pizza world.  If there were pizza grammy's you would be first up for one :)  Walter

Walter,

Thank you very much for the kind remarks but just because something looks or sounds nice doesn't mean that it is any good. Usually in cases like this, a good approach is to test the end points of the exercise. For example, the sponge Preferment quantity might be tested at 20% of the total formula water and at 80% of the total formula water. These are the two endpoints of the Rosada sponge preferment. A test at the middle of the range, at 50% of the total formula water, would also be a useful test. Hopefully, one of the tests would lead to a preference from which to proceed in future exercises. But all three tests would perhaps have to be conducted to know if there is a preference.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2014, 09:37:11 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth below a dough formulation for you to consider that makes use of a sponge preferment. That formulation is a conversion of the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 to a sponge format.

As you can see, I was able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the formulation. However, it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include the IDY in the sponge Preferment and to adjust the IDY in the Final Dough (as shown below) and to get all of the numbers to line up. In retrospect, it would have been far easier to leave out the IDY component of the sponge Preferment, like Walter did, and to simply state what the amounts of IDY should be in the sponge Preferment and in the Final Dough. However, I wanted you to see exactly how all of the numbers look so that you can make similar adjustments at a later date should the formulation presented below be useful but still need adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of getting around the need to do a fair amount of math calculations whenever basic variables are changed, whether it is the amount of the sponge Preferment, the temperature of the prefermentation, or the duration of the prefermentation period, or any combination thereof.

As background, I used the following assumptions:

1.   The dough batch is enough to make five dough balls, each weighing 1.15 pounds (18.4 ounces), for a total of 92 ounces.
2.   The bowl residue compensation is 2%. For scaling purposes, 18.4 ounces should be used for each of the five dough balls.
3.   The room temperature during the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 68 degrees F.
4.   The duration of the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 20 hours.
5.   The temperature of the water used to make the sponge Preferment is 60 degrees F (per Didier Rosada).
6.   The sponge Preferment is 65% of the total formula water of 1000.02 grams (based on Rosada).
7.   The hydration of the sponge Preferment is 63%, which is the same as for the dough formulation given in Reply 1805 cited above.
8.   The sponge Preferment percent of water is 38.6503% (this number is used in the preferment dough calculating tool).
9.   The thickness factor that corresponds to a 16.5” pizza using 18.4 ounces of dough is 18.4/(3.14159 x 8.25 x 8.25) = 0.08605.
10. The flour used is the Full Strength flour, the salt is Morton’s Kosher salt, and the oil is the Lira Olive Pomace Oil.
11. Upon completion of the Final Dough and dividing and scaling, the dough balls will be subjected to a period of cold fermentation.

You will note that, as Walter has stated, there is not much yeast (IDY) used in the sponge Preferment. It comes to 1/16 teaspoon of IDY. That is convenient because it is a standard mini-measuring spoon that is called “pinch”. The amount of IDY to use in the Final Dough is also a convenient value. It is a bit more than 1 Ľ teaspoon.

You will also note the 63% hydration of the sponge Preferment. That should yield a texture like the Final Dough into which it is to be incorporated but there may be some slight differences to the extent that some of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during the period of prefermentation. Also, the Final Dough contains some oil that might lead to slight differences in extensibility.

Within the framework of sponge preferments as described by Didier Rosada, there are a myriad of possible combinations. But, even within the Rosada constraints, there would not be a lot of yeast in the sponge Preferment for the duration of the prefermentation you would be using and also the temperature of prefermentation that you would be using. I used member November’s analytical approach to adjust the Rosada prefermentation profile as set forth in the Rosada article referenced earlier in this thread to fit your particular situation.

Here is the formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):     1587.33 g  |  55.99 oz | 3.5 lbs
Water (63%):     1000.02 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 
Salt (2%):           31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):       3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):           23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):   13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:                   398.78 g | 14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs
Water:                 251.23 g | 8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
IDY:                      0.19 g l 0.0067 oz l 0.063 tsp (1/16 tsp "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
Total:                   650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   1188.55 g | 41.92 oz | 2.62 lbs
Water:                 748.79 g | 26.41 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:                     31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY:                      3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:          650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs
Oil:                       23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar:                  13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total:                    2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs  | TF = N/A

Peter

Peter,

Thank you so much for setting forth a dough formulation for a sponge preferment.  I can understand it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include IDY in the sponge preferment and to adjust the the IDY in the final dough to get all of the numbers to line up.  I can see what the numbers look like but don't know if I will be able to make similar adjustments at a later date if needed.  I think you know how bad I am with math by now and having to do math calculations whenever basic variables are changed. 

I do see there is not much IDY used in the sponge preferment.  I do have a mini-measuring spoon that measures a pinch. 

I noted the 63% hydration of the sponge preferment.  I did not think about maybe some of the water evaporating in the sponge during the period of prefermentation.  How would I know if any water evaporated?   

What is November's analytical approach that you used to adjust the Rosada prefermentaion profile?   

I will give the dough formulation with a sponge preferment a test drive this coming week.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2014, 10:14:08 PM »
Norma,

To know if any of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during prefermentation, you would have to weigh the storage container by itself (i.e., while empty), then with the sponge within it, which would tell you the weight of the poolish, and again at the end of the prefermentation. By subtracting the weight of the storage container from the combined weight at the end of the prefermentation period, that would tell you whether the poolish lost any weight through evaporation. Of course, you can also use the tare feature approach Also, how you cover the storage container during prefermentation can affect the degree of any losses due to evaporation.

The method that I used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol is the one that November discussed in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572 . I simply treated the sponge Preferment as though it was a regular dough. At 63% hydration, that is essentially what a sponge is.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:50:10 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2014, 10:52:18 PM »
Norma,

To know if any of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during prefermentation, you would have to weigh the storage container by itself (i.e., while empty), then with the sponge within it, which would tell you the weight of the poolish, and again at the end of the prefermentation. By subtracting the weight of the storage container from the combined weight at the end of the prefermentation period, that would tell you whether the poolish lost any weight through evaporation. Of course, you can also use the tare feature approach Also, how you cover the storage container during prefermentation can affect the degree of any losses due to evaporation.

The method that I used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol is the one that November discussed in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572 . I simply treated the poolish Preferment as though it was a regular dough. At 63% hydration, that is essentially what a sponge is.

Peter

Peter,

That makes sense what you posted in the two methods to find out if the sponge preferment loses any water though evaporation.  I will make sure I have a tight fitting cover for the sponge during prefermentation.  One other thing I don't understand is why you call a sponge a poolish.

Thanks for the link to November's method you used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol.  I understand that at 63% hydration that is essentially what a sponge is.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2014, 07:53:14 AM »
One other thing I don't understand is why you call a sponge a poolish.
Norma,

I meant sponge, not poolish. I have corrected my post. Thanks for catching that.

Peter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2014, 12:33:36 PM »
report:  IDY poolish or whatever you call it worked the best but still not near as good as a normal 2+ day cold ferment. Flavor was marginal.   Inactive sourdough starter came out cracker like and the worst of the lot.  regular 24 hour cold ferment inbetween the other 2. All in all I would not make any of them regularly.  Next to our 2 day we used today the stunk.  I have pictures but only have a quick minute to write.  I am going to try Peter's formula and also some bulk multi day ferments.  There just seems no way around the time factor that I have found yet.  Walter

PS:  FYI I rate pizzas as really good or crap.  No inbetween.  Todays experiments were crap but my kids ate them all up.  Again I realize most people don't judge as harshly as I do. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:43:39 PM by waltertore »