Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 70348 times)

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Online mitchjg

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #825 on: August 19, 2014, 10:04:51 PM »
It's in her genes AND she learned from the best.  How could it be possible for her not to do a great job!!!!
Mitch


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #826 on: August 19, 2014, 10:14:01 PM »
She has the magic touch Norma....is she going to be your new helper now?
I believe I probably speak for the rest of the guys and myself when I say we wouldn`t mind at all if she was to become a regular in your Market pizza pics.  :)   She has a beautiful smile and looks like she really enjoys being there with you and messing around with the
 pizzas.   :chef:

Bob,

She might not be my new helper for too long.  She is applying for other jobs.  She works at another job but is getting sick of that one. 

Thanks about her beautiful smile! 

Norma 

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #827 on: August 19, 2014, 10:19:01 PM »
^^^

Thanks Wayne!

It's in her genes AND she learned from the best.  How could it be possible for her not to do a great job!!!!


Mitch,

It might be in her genes, but she just made her first pizza last week and has not practiced since.  I sure could not do that good of a job when I first started making pizzas.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #828 on: August 20, 2014, 12:22:50 PM »
I am still liking the results when using the same formulation.  The fresh baked bread smell is still there while baking the pies.  The dough balls open easily.

If I ever find a right KA sourdough starter formulation, (to add to my dough formulation) for a NY style pizza, I would think there might be other problems of getting everything right.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #829 on: August 20, 2014, 01:02:22 PM »
Norma,

Is the dough formulation you used the one that is posted in Reply 812 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg332147#msg332147?

Peter

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #830 on: August 20, 2014, 01:30:45 PM »
Norma,

Is the dough formulation you used the one that is posted in Reply 812 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg332147#msg332147?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, that is the dough formulation I have been using for market.  I wonder what percentage of the KA sourdough starter I should try in that formulation to see if the KA sourdough starter would give a better flavor for a one day cold ferment.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #831 on: August 20, 2014, 03:06:54 PM »
Norma,
How many batches of dough do you typically make for a day at Market.
You are able to access the Market stand on Monday, correct?
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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #832 on: August 20, 2014, 03:12:10 PM »
Norma,
How many batches of dough do you typically make for a day at Market.
You are able to access the Market stand on Monday, correct?

Bob,

I usually make 3 batches of boardwalk style dough right now, and that all depends on the weather and what time of year it is.  I am able to access my market stand on a Monday.  That is when I mixed the dough batches, shred the cheese and make the pizza sauce.  Sometimes I don't use as big of batches if I have some leftover dough balls.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #833 on: August 20, 2014, 05:13:05 PM »
Sorry if I have missed it somewhere Norma but have you ever tried a 24hr RT bulk ferment with a batch of Market dough?
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #834 on: August 20, 2014, 05:36:30 PM »
Sorry if I have missed it somewhere Norma but have you ever tried a 24hr RT bulk ferment with a batch of Market dough?

Bob,

In my opinion, a 24 hour bulk ferment would be too hard for me to understand to be able to achieve anywhere near good results.  Remember, temperatures at market can range from in the 30's up to almost 100 degrees F.  I think I would have a mess with trying to deal with a RT bulk ferment.  What happens after the RT bulk ferment when the dough would be balled Tuesday?  I would think the dough balls would be too hard to open.  I really don't want to have to ball the day of market either.  When I get to market I am plenty busy doing all the other things that need to be done.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #835 on: September 16, 2014, 09:27:43 PM »
I asked my granddaughter to take the bake times of a few of my pizzas today when one pie after another were going in and out of the oven.  The bakes times ranged from 5:44 minutes to a little over 5:48 seconds. 

I also asked my granddaughter to take a short video of me opening one of the dough balls today.  My dough balls are very easy to open and the dough feels like silk.

I am beginning to believe it matters how the crust tastes, how the cheese and sauce taste after the bake on the crust, and how the complete bakes goes in determining how the final pizza will taste. 

I had many customers tell me today that my crust tastes the best that they have ever tasted for a thin style pizza.  They also told me how much they like my crust, cheese and sauce on on the boardwalk style pizzas.  I had one customer tell me that he knows my pizza will be consistent in how they taste because I am always the one that makes the pizzas.  The one man told me that other pizzerias in our area always have someone different manning the oven and sometimes the pie crusts are soggy or not completely baked, or are overbaked. 

I had something similar happen today with another crust on a boardwalk style pizza tasting differently and then the cheese and sauce tasted altogether different.  I would have never thought they would have been the same sauce and cheese that I normally use.  I had the same problem when I was making a pizza with a dough that was made using a sourdough culture and IDY.  The dough today that was used that made the pizza taste altogether different was Frank's dough that he had mixed by hand yesterday.  The taste of the crust was so bland that I think that affected the whole taste of the pizza.  My granddaughter and Luis also said the same thing.

 

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #836 on: September 16, 2014, 10:05:35 PM »
The dough today that was used that made the pizza taste altogether different was Frank's dough that he had mixed by hand yesterday.  The taste of the crust was so bland that I think that affected the whole taste of the pizza.  My granddaughter and Luis also said the same thing.
Norma

I've been wondering about that ever since I saw the video. I'm wondering if Frank confused the teaspoon scoop for something else and maybe meant a quarter cup. I think that would bring the salt to about 2.5%. I've made worse mistakes than that in the kitchen...like the time I forgot the salt completely.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #837 on: September 16, 2014, 10:14:31 PM »
That last vid with you in your pretty red blouse was very telling and I liked it a lot Norma. We all know you are working in confined conditions and watching you stretch your dough shows that you know just when you have it to the right size...you are a very skilled pizza maker and I hope you will continue to post up vids of your processes like this one, when you have time, so more people here can learn.

Frank is old school, and I love that. But we know that the busy shops he has been in all his life with using same day dough is always going to be a bit bland tasting.

Interesting that you now have come to understand/think that it is a combination of all the ingredients that make for a good pie. I think that before, perhaps, you were focusing in on just the crust/dough....trying many things to make it stand out.....I think you are right, it`s a combination thing.  :chef:
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #838 on: September 16, 2014, 10:40:51 PM »
I've been wondering about that ever since I saw the video. I'm wondering if Frank confused the teaspoon scoop for something else and maybe meant a quarter cup. I think that would bring the salt to about 2.5%. I've made worse mistakes than that in the kitchen...like the time I forgot the salt completely.

Jon in Albany,

I have to ask Frank about the salt again in the dough he mixed by hand on Monday.  Last week his pizza crusts tasted very good.  The Sicilian pizza crust tasted good too.

Good to hear you also made mistakes before.  I really made a big mistake at market one week when mixing a big batch of dough.  I used the sugar amount for the salt.   :-[

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #839 on: September 16, 2014, 10:47:04 PM »
That last vid with you in your pretty red blouse was very telling and I liked it a lot Norma. We all know you are working in confined conditions and watching you stretch your dough shows that you know just when you have it to the right size...you are a very skilled pizza maker and I hope you will continue to post up vids of your processes like this one, when you have time, so more people here can learn.

Frank is old school, and I love that. But we know that the busy shops he has been in all his life with using same day dough is always going to be a bit bland tasting.

Interesting that you now have come to understand/think that it is a combination of all the ingredients that make for a good pie. I think that before, perhaps, you were focusing in on just the crust/dough....trying many things to make it stand out.....I think you are right, it`s a combination thing.  :chef:

Bob,

Thank you for your kind comments!  I don't know what videos members might be interested in. 

I still have to ask Frank about the salt amount.

I knew my customers liked the taste of the sauce and cheese I used, but did not fully appreciate how it all comes together with the crust too, until this recent experiment with Frank's dough.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #840 on: September 16, 2014, 11:57:48 PM »
Bob,

Thank you for your kind comments!  I don't know what videos members might be interested in. 

I still have to ask Frank about the salt amount.

I knew my customers liked the taste of the sauce and cheese I used, but did not fully appreciate how it all comes together with the crust too, until this recent experiment with Frank's dough.

Norma
I don`t want to cause extra work for you Norma and you really have posted up many fine videos showing what goes on there at the Market.

But ya know...I do have one further request of a vid that I and many others would really enjoy seeing. If some day when the timing is right an your granddaughter or Louis could catch the vid...it would be waaay cool to see you talking with a customer that just bit into one of your pies/slices....I`m talking about one of theses regulars you often mention that come out of their way just to get your stuff...the discussion/interaction of why your pizza brings memories of the beach to them would be really cool.
Maybe you can make that vid happen some day....jus something to keep in the back of your mind if you please Miss Norma.   8)
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #841 on: September 17, 2014, 06:30:41 AM »
Noma:  You are talking about the total balance of the pie in terms of taste and  how when 1 part is changed how it changes the  taste of the other ingredients.  I have tried to communicate this on the net via words but you got it.  This may be one of the confusions we have had over the 1 to 4 day dough taste. I judge a crust in relation to the entire pie taste.  Anyway, words/videos/pictures don't explain it.  One has to eat it to know if the balance is there.   That bland dough showed a big piece of the puzzle!  Walter
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 06:33:21 AM by waltertore »


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #842 on: September 17, 2014, 07:00:51 AM »

But ya know...I do have one further request of a vid that I and many others would really enjoy seeing. If some day when the timing is right an your granddaughter or Louis could catch the vid...it would be waaay cool to see you talking with a customer that just bit into one of your pies/slices....I`m talking about one of theses regulars you often mention that come out of their way just to get your stuff...the discussion/interaction of why your pizza brings memories of the beach to them would be really cool.
Maybe you can make that vid happen some day....jus something to keep in the back of your mind if you please Miss Norma.   8)

Bob,

I can ask some of my customers if they would like to explain on a video what they like about my pizzas.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #843 on: September 17, 2014, 07:08:11 AM »
Noma:  You are talking about the total balance of the pie in terms of taste and  how when 1 part is changed how it changes the  taste of the other ingredients.  I have tried to communicate this on the net via words but you got it.  This may be one of the confusions we have had over the 1 to 4 day dough taste. I judge a crust in relation to the entire pie taste.  Anyway, words/videos/pictures don't explain it.  One has to eat it to know if the balance is there.   That bland dough showed a big piece of the puzzle!  Walter

Walter,

Yes, I was talking about the total balance of the pie in terms of taste and how when one part is changed how it changes the taste of the other ingredients.  I know many pizzerias in my area use really good ingredients, but their crusts still taste like cardboard and then that throws the whole taste of their pizzas off.  I know photos/videos/words can't really explain what happens.  I agree one has to really eat a slice of pizza to really understand.  In my opinion a really good looking pizza in photos may not taste all that good.

I had sent a PM to Tom Lehmann awhile ago about pizza sauce, and what can make a pizza sauce taste better when baked on a pizza..  This is part of Tom's reply to me.

Norma;
Not having visited all of the N.Y. pizzerias (who has?) I can only speculate that, based on what I have seen, most probably do not add oil to the sauce, but back when we were actively studying sauce we found that there was a marked improvement in sauce flavor on the finished pizza when as little as 1% oil was used in the sauce. This is not due to the flavor of the oil, but instead due to the flavor encapsulating properties of the oil. During baking the oil captures and retains some of those great aromatics released during baking thus improving the flavor of the finished pizza. Think of why you ware always admonished your mother to keep the butter dish covered, or think infused oil. In some cases you may not always see an improvement in flavor though, as pizzas which are already heavily flavored (the majority of independent and chain store pizzas) make it difficult to detect any flavor differences. As a case in point,a number of years ago I was working with a pizza chain in the Bahamas to bring about an improvement in the flavor of their pizzas, they had already tried everything they could think of but to no avail, hence, I got called in. After looking at their sauce formulation all I did was to add oil to the sauce, and presto, we got the flavor they were looking for. The way I describe it to my students is to say, "you know how good a pizza smells when it's being baked, too bad your customers will never be able to appreciate or enjoy those aromas, they are volatile and lost forever (that's why you can smell them in the first place) but the addition of oil to the sauce or even the dough for that matter, will help to entrap some of those aromas and flavors thus allowing your customers to enjoy some of them as you do when baking your pizzas. Additionally, in a DELCO operation the use of oil in the sauce really helps to hole onto those flavors and aromas while the pizza is being delivered or taken home.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #844 on: September 17, 2014, 09:16:43 AM »
The taste of the crust was so bland that I think that affected the whole taste of the pizza.  My granddaughter and Luis also said the same thing.
Norma,

I believe that the blandness of Frank's crust was due almost entirely to the lack of sufficient salt. In fact, in my experience, whenever I hear someone say that a pizza crust is "bland", it is almost always due to insufficient salt. Based on the six dough balls that you made from Frank's dough, I estimate that the amount of salt per dough ball (with a weight of a bit over 20 ounces) was about 1/6 teaspoon. It was perhaps a bit lower than that because of the additional water that was added during mixing of the dough.

The lowest amount of salt that I can recall intentionally using was 1%. That was based on a recommendation by Evelyne Slomon and supposedly was typical of the salt levels that the NYC old timers used in the early days of the NY style of pizza. As it turned out, the finished crust was very bland. I found support of that conclusion at the AIB website at https://www.aibonline.org/aibOnline_/GenericForm.aspx?strOpen=\www.aibonline.org\researchandtechnical\faqs\pizza.html, where Tom Lehmann reported the following:

Salt levels below 1% of the flour weight in the dough will produce a crust with a very bland flavor.

About the lowest salt level that my palate can tolerate from a satisfaction standpoint is around 1.50% salt. But I prefer something in the 1.75-2% range. That is a range that most experts recommend, including Tom Lehmann, King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html), and Prof. Calvel (he actually goes out to 2.2% for bread dough).

It might be natural to assume that because there is salt in the pizza sauce (either added to the tomatoes during canning or in preparing the pizza sauce) and in the cheese, those salt quantities will make up for a lack of adequate salt in the crust and the crust won't taste bland. However, in my experience, that has not been true. Maybe if there are salty meats on the pizza, like pepperoni or sausage, the crust blandness might not be detected but in my experience that also has not been true. At some point you will usually eat just some of the crust and it will be bland. I think it has to do with the "balance" thing that Walter and you have discussed. Everything, including salt levels, has to be in balance.

The low sugar and oil levels and the use of all-purpose flour also do not help Frank's dough. Sugar and oil are not essential ingredients for the NY style, but to get value out of them for taste purposes, they have to be at detectable levels. As for the amount of oil, Tom Lehmann has this to say at the aforementioned AIB website:

We have found that oil levels as low as 1% of the flour weight in the dough.......will exhibit a flavor enhancing affect, with a maximum benefit obtained at somewhere between 1.5 and 2% levels.

The use of all-purpose flour, even with its long history in pizza dough making, naturally leads to less crust flavor, and also color, because of its lower protein/gluten content compared with the higher protein flours used today and reduced denaturing of the protein and reduce Maillard reactions during baking. At low sugar levels, there will also be reduced caramelization.

I'm sure that in due course you will get the scoop on the salt issue. It is quite possible that what Frank was trying to do was to show was his way of making dough by hand, not an optimum dough from the standpoint of ingredients. I'm sure we will all be interested in seeing the recipe for the dough that you liked so much.

Peter


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #845 on: September 17, 2014, 09:28:48 AM »
It might be natural to assume that because there is salt in the pizza sauce (either added to the tomatoes during canning or in preparing the pizza sauce) and in the cheese, those salt quantities will make up for a lack of adequate salt in the crust and the crust won't taste bland. However, in my experience, that has not been true. Maybe if there are salty meats on the pizza, like pepperoni or sausage, the crust blandness might not be detected but in my experience that also has not been true. At some point you will usually eat just some of the crust and it will be bland. I think it has to do with the "balance" thing that Walter and you have discussed. Everything, including salt levels, has to be in balance.

I don't think anything can make up for a lack of salt in the crust because at some point you will take a bite of crust with no sauce or cheese and that bite will be what defines the pizza.
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #846 on: September 17, 2014, 10:33:10 AM »
Norma,

I believe that the blandness of Frank's crust was due almost entirely to the lack of sufficient salt. In fact, in my experience, whenever I hear someone say that a pizza crust is "bland", it is almost always due to insufficient salt. Based on the six dough balls that you made from Frank's dough, I estimate that the amount of salt per dough ball (with a weight of a bit over 20 ounces) was about 1/6 teaspoon. It was perhaps a bit lower than that because of the additional water that was added during mixing of the dough.

The lowest amount of salt that I can recall intentionally using was 1%. That was based on a recommendation by Evelyne Slomon and supposedly was typical of the salt levels that the NYC old timers used in the early days of the NY style of pizza. As it turned out, the finished crust was very bland. I found support of that conclusion at the AIB website at https://www.aibonline.org/aibOnline_/GenericForm.aspx?strOpen=\www.aibonline.org\researchandtechnical\faqs\pizza.html, where Tom Lehmann reported the following:

Salt levels below 1% of the flour weight in the dough will produce a crust with a very bland flavor.

About the lowest salt level that my palate can tolerate from a satisfaction standpoint is around 1.50% salt. But I prefer something in the 1.75-2% range. That is a range that most experts recommend, including Tom Lehmann, King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html), and Prof. Calvel (he actually goes out to 2.2% for bread dough).

It might be natural to assume that because there is salt in the pizza sauce (either added to the tomatoes during canning or in preparing the pizza sauce) and in the cheese, those salt quantities will make up for a lack of adequate salt in the crust and the crust won't taste bland. However, in my experience, that has not been true. Maybe if there are salty meats on the pizza, like pepperoni or sausage, the crust blandness might not be detected but in my experience that also has not been true. At some point you will usually eat just some of the crust and it will be bland. I think it has to do with the "balance" thing that Walter and you have discussed. Everything, including salt levels, has to be in balance.

The low sugar and oil levels and the use of all-purpose flour also do not help Frank's dough. Sugar and oil are not essential ingredients for the NY style, but to get value out of them for taste purposes, they have to be at detectable levels. As for the amount of oil, Tom Lehmann has this to say at the aforementioned AIB website:

We have found that oil levels as low as 1% of the flour weight in the dough.......will exhibit a flavor enhancing affect, with a maximum benefit obtained at somewhere between 1.5 and 2% levels.

The use of all-purpose flour, even with its long history in pizza dough making, naturally leads to less crust flavor, and also color, because of its lower protein/gluten content compared with the higher protein flours used today and reduced denaturing of the protein and reduce Maillard reactions during baking. At low sugar levels, there will also be reduced caramelization.

I'm sure that in due course you will get the scoop on the salt issue. It is quite possible that what Frank was trying to do was to show was his way of making dough by hand, not an optimum dough from the standpoint of ingredients. I'm sure we will all be interested in seeing the recipe for the dough that you liked so much.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that the blandness in Frank's crust was due entirely to the lack of sufficient salt.  When the other videos are posted of Frank mixing his dough by hand you will be able to see how much more flour Frank added.  Frank used a different balling technique than I never saw.  He oiled the bench and then balled.  Frank's dough balls aren't what I call true balled dough balls.  I had wondered the week before why Frank's 2 dough balls looked different in the plastic wrap.  I think that might be one of his balling techniques. 

Thanks for telling us that the lowest amount of salt you recall intentionally using was 1%, and that was based on a recommendation by Evelyne Slomon.  I can understand how that crust would have been bland.  Thanks also for the link to the AIB website. 

Frank's pizza crust made with AP flour last week was colored enough for me, and the taste was good.  I  don't know if Frank uses the same dough recipe all the time, but I intend to find out.  I froze one of Frank's dough ball last night.  If Frank comes to market on Monday again I am going to get him to try and bake that dough ball, with or without dressings.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #847 on: September 17, 2014, 10:34:57 AM »
I don't think anything can make up for a lack of salt in the crust because at some point you will take a bite of crust with no sauce or cheese and that bite will be what defines the pizza.

Craig,

I agree!  I know your NP pizzas are in perfect balance.  :chef:

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #848 on: September 23, 2014, 06:37:22 AM »
I tried to take my deck oven temperatures yesterday while Frank was at market.  As can be seen in the video I really don't know what temperatures I am baking at.  That is why I usually say I am baking between 525-550 degrees F.  My Baker's Pride Countertop GP-61 deck oven does seems to recover the heat well, and bake times seem to be pretty consistent.  I do have to rotate my boardwalk NY style pizzas while baking. 

 


Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #849 on: September 23, 2014, 09:49:08 PM »
My granddaughter would not ask any of my customers if they would say why they like my boardwalk style of pizzas on a video.  I did ask one customer if he wanted to be on a video and say why he liked my pizzas.  That is a little embarrassing.  :-[



Norma


 

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