Author Topic: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat  (Read 3554 times)

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Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2014, 07:13:03 PM »
walter

why not simply make a 5 day dough??  I don't understand why that would be so difficult........fill me in......thanks.

Only being open 5 days a week(M-F) is the main issue and couldn't figure around not being there Sat/Sun to make dough.  So I have figured a 3 day and 5 day dough schedule between M-F.   Walter

Make all dough early afternoon

5 day dough:
Wed- ready Mon
Thur- ready Tues
Friday- ready Wed

3 day dough:
Mon - ready thurs
Tues - ready Fri


Offline pythonic

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2014, 02:39:47 PM »
Only being open 5 days a week(M-F) is the main issue and couldn't figure around not being there Sat/Sun to make dough.  So I have figured a 3 day and 5 day dough schedule between M-F.   Walter

Make all dough early afternoon

5 day dough:
Wed- ready Mon
Thur- ready Tues
Friday- ready Wed

3 day dough:
Mon - ready thurs
Tues - ready Fri

Walter,

Why not use a poolish and a 2-4 day dough?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2014, 05:31:41 PM »
Walter,

Why not use a poolish and a 2-4 day dough?

Nate

Hi Nate: thanks for the suggest. Unfortunately I don't like a poolish for pizza.  I have tried it many times but the dough just doesn't taste like pizza to me.  I like my crust to taste like I grew up with in NJ/NYC. 

Offline drmatt357

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2014, 12:52:58 AM »
Walt, what is your percent water in your 5 day ferment?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2014, 12:10:31 PM »
Walter, what is the stone temp in your top oven?

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2014, 01:21:34 PM »
Walt, what is your percent water in your 5 day ferment?

63%

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2014, 01:21:49 PM »
Walter, what is the stone temp in your top oven?

approx 560

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2014, 07:56:43 PM »
Hi Walter,

I'm not sure if you've already answered this, but what is your salt and yeast percentage for your dough for your 3-5 day cold fermentations, and do you use ADY/IDY/fresh yeast?

 For my latest experiments, I've been doing a 48 hour cold fermentation and use about .45% ADY, 2% barley malt powder instead of sugar, 2% oil and 2% salt. The dough tastes great, but is very extensible when forming,  and I do not get the oven spring on the crust like I would like. I question wheather I need more yeast or is the malt powder contributing to my issue. I do not use diastatic btw. I want to avoid having to make a sponge because I really like the ease and flavors of long, cold fermentation times.

Thanks
Maureen

Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2014, 08:00:59 PM »
Maureen,

What kind and brand of flour are you using, and what is the hydration percent? Also, what kind of oven are you using and what bake temperature and bake time are you using?

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2014, 08:53:23 PM »
Hi Walter,

I'm not sure if you've already answered this, but what is your salt and yeast percentage for your dough for your 3-5 day cold fermentations, and do you use ADY/IDY/fresh yeast?

 For my latest experiments, I've been doing a 48 hour cold fermentation and use about .45% ADY, 2% barley malt powder instead of sugar, 2% oil and 2% salt. The dough tastes great, but is very extensible when forming,  and I do not get the oven spring on the crust like I would like. I question wheather I need more yeast or is the malt powder contributing to my issue. I do not use diastatic btw. I want to avoid having to make a sponge because I really like the ease and flavors of long, cold fermentation times.

Thanks
Maureen

Maureen:  Peter asked important questions.  I use .2 IDY, 1.85 salt, 2% oil and 63% hydration (full strength flour with about a 6-7 minute mix).   No sugar in our dough.  The dough is very easy to work with and gets good oven spring.  Walter


Offline jkb

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2014, 11:17:20 AM »
 
Walt, what is your percent water in your 5 day ferment?



Walter, what is the stone temp in your top oven?


Walter, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2014, 12:12:07 PM »
 



Walter, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


I have researched this for many years. It varies with the wind direction, thermal activity, airfoil configuration the swallow uses, and many more factors that are far too technical for the common man :-D  Walter

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2014, 02:51:29 PM »
Maureen,

What kind and brand of flour are you using, and what is the hydration percent? Also, what kind of oven are you using and what bake temperature and bake time are you using?

Peter

Hi Peter,

I use KASL flour and 60% hydration, which might be too low for the yeast activity as well.  I am using an electric oven with a large stone on the bottom deck of the oven and I bake at 475 F about 11 minutes.

Thanks
Maureen
Maureen

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2014, 02:53:11 PM »
Maureen:  Peter asked important questions.  I use .2 IDY, 1.85 salt, 2% oil and 63% hydration (full strength flour with about a 6-7 minute mix).   No sugar in our dough.  The dough is very easy to work with and gets good oven spring.  Walter

Thank you Walter for sharing. I definitely will try a higher hydration percentage, I believe mine is way too low for the yeast activity.

Maureen
Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2014, 03:15:30 PM »
Hi Peter,

I use KASL flour and 60% hydration, which might be too low for the yeast activity as well.  I am using an electric oven with a large stone on the bottom deck of the oven and I bake at 475 F about 11 minutes.

Thanks
Maureen
Maureen,

I think you would do better not only to increase the hydration a few percent but also use a higher oven temperature--around 525 degrees F if you can achieve that. But at that temperature, you may want to delete the nondiastatic malt in your formulation or reduce it to one percent. The higher oven temperature along with the increased hydration hopefully will give you a better oven spring. Your bake time should be less than what you have been using but you still want it to be long enough to develop good top and bottom crust coloration without excessive bottom charring and maybe a crispier bottom crust. If you can get the oven spring as you want it, then you can play around with the malt to try to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Peter

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2014, 05:34:53 PM »
Maureen,

I think you would do better not only to increase the hydration a few percent but also use a higher oven temperature--around 525 degrees F if you can achieve that. But at that temperature, you may want to delete the nondiastatic malt in your formulation or reduce it to one percent. The higher oven temperature along with the increased hydration hopefully will give you a better oven spring. Your bake time should be less than what you have been using but you still want it to be long enough to develop good top and bottom crust coloration without excessive bottom charring and maybe a crispier bottom crust. If you can get the oven spring as you want it, then you can play around with the malt to try to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Peter

Thank You Peter - I think you are right about the water and the malt powder. I am getting a really dark crust coloration at 2% malt and 475 degrees.  I can only get to 500 degrees on my oven, but I definitely will try my next dough sans malt and a higher oven temp to see what gives. I have also been using ADY and wonder if I should try IDY at some point, but one experiment  at a time I think!

Maureen

Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2014, 06:12:07 PM »
Maureen,

There is nothing wrong with ADY but it requires prehydrating in part of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes. With IDY, you can just mix it in dry with the flour and other dry ingredients.

Part of the "really dark crust coloration" that you got was no doubt due to the very long bake time that you used, even at the reduced oven temperature. In fact, a long bake at a lower than normal bake temperature is a good way to get crust coloration. In your case, the malt pushed the color over the edge so to speak. Most pizza operators with deck ovens tend to avoid using sugar or other sweeteners in their doughs or keep the amount on the low side because the high deck temperatures can burn the sweetener. A home oven with a pizza stone can tolerate a small amount of sugar in the dough because of its low BTUs. But, even then, it is a good idea to monitor the bottom crust development as the pizza bakes.

I'm confident that you will dial in all of the variables in due course.

Peter


Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2014, 11:12:09 PM »
Maureen,

There is nothing wrong with ADY but it requires prehydrating in part of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes. With IDY, you can just mix it in dry with the flour and other dry ingredients.

Part of the "really dark crust coloration" that you got was no doubt due to the very long bake time that you used, even at the reduced oven temperature. In fact, a long bake at a lower than normal bake temperature is a good way to get crust coloration. In your case, the malt pushed the color over the edge so to speak. Most pizza operators with deck ovens tend to avoid using sugar or other sweeteners in their doughs or keep the amount on the low side because the high deck temperatures can burn the sweetener. A home oven with a pizza stone can tolerate a small amount of sugar in the dough because of its low BTUs. But, even then, it is a good idea to monitor the bottom crust development as the pizza bakes.

I'm confident that you will dial in all of the variables in due course.

Peter

Peter,
Thank you for the advice.  I am definitely keeping my pies in the oven too long.

So, regarding the ADY for pizza making: if I am mixing part of the formula water at 105 degrees with the yeast to proof it, how does that fit in to the calculations for the remaining formula water temperature if I want the finished dough temp between 73-78?  I know how to calculate water temperature normally, but would this bit of warmer water actually make it difficult to figure the remaining water temp? I realize that the water will eventually cool down as the yeast proofs and would no longer be 105 degrees. I guess I should just use the smallest amount of water that I can get away with? 

Maureen. 

Here is a picture of one of my pies- I don't have a pic of the bottom.
Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2014, 12:24:32 PM »
So, regarding the ADY for pizza making: if I am mixing part of the formula water at 105 degrees with the yeast to proof it, how does that fit in to the calculations for the remaining formula water temperature if I want the finished dough temp between 73-78?  I know how to calculate water temperature normally, but would this bit of warmer water actually make it difficult to figure the remaining water temp? I realize that the water will eventually cool down as the yeast proofs and would no longer be 105 degrees. I guess I should just use the smallest amount of water that I can get away with? 

Maureen. 
Maureen,

Your instincts on the ADY are good. The general rule for prehydrating ADY is to use an amount of the formula water that is about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY. So, for example, if your dough formulation calls for 1g of ADY and the total formula water is, say, 137g, you would use five grams of that water to prehydrate the ADY.  That water would be at about 105 degrees F and the duration of prehydration would be around 10 minutes. The rest of the formula water, 132g, would have its temperature adjusted to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. For a standard home refrigerator, that finished dough temperature would typically be around 75-80 degrees F. Once the ADY has been prehydrated, it can then be added to the rest of the formula water (temperature adjusted) or to the other ingredients in the mixer bowl.

Where many people go wrong in prehydrating ADY is using all of the formula water at around 105 degrees F. That is bound to elevate the finished dough temperature to a much higher value than you want. In can even speed up the fermentation process and cause problems down the line.

Peter

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2014, 01:13:44 PM »
Maureen, you could save yourself a great deal of hassle just by switching to IDY.  Keep a jar in the fridge and add it directly to the water- at whatever temp you wish to work with. No special treatment whatsoever.


 

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