Author Topic: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat  (Read 3532 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2014, 01:44:34 PM »
Scott,

Maureen raised the possibility of using IDY after Walter told her that is what he uses. However, there are people who actually prefer ADY. Even the yeast producers advocate using ADY instead of IDY for dough that is to be refrigerated. This once lead to the exchange I set forth in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10707.msg95811.html#msg95811.

Peter


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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2014, 01:53:05 PM »
I am getting a really dark crust coloration at 2% malt and 475 degrees.  I can only get to 500 degrees on my oven, but I definitely will try my next dough sans malt and a higher oven temp to see what gives.

Maureen, bake time is a huge factor in oven spring.  The faster the bake, the better the puff. For NY, 500 is a little anemic, especially with a stone.  Some electric ovens can be calibrated a few degrees higher. Is there any chance yours can do this?

Many ovens with 500 degree dials will actually reach temps higher than 500, which, for NY, is invaluable.  If you can reach 525, steel plate becomes viable, and nothing can touch steel for NY style.  Before you go shopping for steel, though, you'll want to confirm what temps your oven is actually reaching. The best way to achieve this is with an infrared thermometer.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31021.msg308941#msg308941

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2014, 02:20:44 PM »
However, there are people who actually prefer ADY.

Are there?  Are they forum members?  I've never come across someone who switched from ADY to IDY and then went back, and I've been here for a while :)

As far as the yeast producers stance on IDY in refrigerated doughs, they can make recommendations from now until the cows come home, but none of that can change what I've witnessed with hundreds of doughs, and what other forum members have witnessed with what accounts to most likely thousands of doughs- IDY works stunningly well with extended refrigeration.

I'll concede that there may be someone out there who might actually want the effects of dead yeast that can be obtained with ADY, but I sincerely think that's a very short list- and more likely to be in the industrial realm and not the home baker.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2014, 02:40:24 PM »
Scott,

You are right. The list of ADY users is fairly short. Sometimes members will buy ADY because the forms of IDY at retail often do not use the expression instant dried yeast. It might be bread machine yeast or something else. Once they discover that they can get one- or two-pound bags of IDY for a song, they then usually switch over to IDY.

Ryan has been a regular user of ADY although he may have switched over to IDY or is thinking of doing so. Member November said the following about ADY, at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg34030;topicseen#msg34030:

Yes, I use ADY.  I will probably never use anything but ADY for all of my life.  If I were using IDY, I'd activate it the same way except I would start at 104 F.  After all, the reason for blooming ADY is still present for IDY, you just don't need to bloom it as long.  I'm at a loss as to what I would do to compensate for the absence of ADY's higher dead yeast count.  The higher dead yeast count is the primary reason I use ADY.

ADY was actually developed for home bakers shortly after World War II. It wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that IDY was invented. So there were many years that ADY was used by home bakers.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2014, 04:19:28 PM »
Ryan has been a regular user of ADY although he may have switched over to IDY or is thinking of doing so.

Yeah, I use ADY for NY style, although I've been gradually switching over to IDY with other styles; particularly styles that call for a high yeast percentage (basically stiff cracker style doughs). I didn't realize until today that I was pretty much alone in using ADY. (Scott already knew I use ADY, as he has made an effort to get me to switch.) Honestly, I'm sick of the extra work required with ADY, and I'll probably switch over to IDY very soon, if not with my next batch of NY style dough. The only things that have really kept me from doing it already are fear of change, less forgiveness if my even-smaller measurement ends up a little wrong, and the fact that I make other little changes with almost every batch of dough. Especially now that I have a new oven, which I'm still getting to know, as I think I've only used it a few times for pizza. (Thankfully I have already figured out that this oven is awesome for pizza.)

I've actually already done some pizza-related experimenting in the new oven without even making pizza. For example, I've moved my stone to the second-highest rack position (to be near the broiler, which I still don't know if I'll even use, since this gas oven's ceiling seems to reflect heat back down onto the pizza very well), then cranked up the oven just to find out how hot the stone gets in a higher position than I normally keep it. (It gets at least as hot as 570 in the second highest position, and it gets at least as hot as 750 on the oven floor.) Also, I just ordered an 18x18x1 stone from Axner yesterday, to finally replace my 15.75" x 1/2" (round) stone.

I'll probably make the switch to IDY with my next batch of NY style dough, which I anticipate making in a week or 10 days from now. Can't wait to find out how an inch of thermal mass treats my pizzas.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2014, 04:38:57 PM »
i have 2 21in. round 3quarter in axners still in shipping box if you want to experiment.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2014, 05:35:39 PM »
Seriously? I might. Have to see if my oven is that deep first, though. I'm thinking it's probably only 19"ish.

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2014, 05:40:31 PM »
Ryan, you needed to purchase a new stone and you didn't get steel? Seriously?  ;D

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2014, 05:46:25 PM »
I knew that was coming.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2014, 05:47:14 PM »
Did you see the temperatures I can reach with my stone?


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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2014, 06:01:30 PM »
 ;D 750's fantastic for cordierite, but 570... if you want to be able to explore every possible NY bake time (which, at this point, I would hope that you do), then 570 + cordierite will not achieve that end. You did say 'at least as hot as' so hopefully, in that upper position, you'll be able to flirt with 600. 600 + cordierite is pretty happy.

Btw, for future reference, I'm not sure if you were putting the stone directly on the oven floor, but, with gas ovens, that can get  dangerous, as the stones can block the vents which can cause the flame to extinguish.  There's usually a cut off in place when the flame goes out, but it's better to avoid the situation completely.


Online Chaze215

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2014, 06:13:00 PM »
Just as an aside to the ady / idy discussion. I've been using ady for a few years now and don't activate it in 105 degree water or anything. I just add it to my mix without any problems. Maybe I would see/taste a difference if I used IDY or activated the ADY? Who knows.
Chaz

Offline pdog

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2014, 06:37:42 PM »
Just as an aside to the ady / idy discussion. I've been using ady for a few years now and don't activate it in 105 degree water or anything. I just add it to my mix without any problems. Maybe I would see/taste a difference if I used IDY or activated the ADY? Who knows.

Same here with ADY- I just throw it into the water and give it a stir and move on.  I have never used IDY - Only ADY and a natural starter. 

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2014, 07:08:52 PM »
you don`t need to proof, bloom, whatever confusing word....toss it in and get on with life.
actually try it if you don`t wanna believe me man.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2014, 07:20:36 PM »
I know that any time I discuss prehydrating ADY, members will step up and report that they do not do that with their ADY. There is usually not much that I can say about such reports absent a showing of how much ADY was used and the nature and duration of the fermentation. No doubt there are circumstances where the right amount of ADY in the right dough formulation will work. However, what works in a home setting with ADY may not be advisable in a commercial setting where uniformity and consistency of results are a necessity. It would be far better in such a case to use IDY than risk problems with the dough because a pizza operator chose to use ADY without prehydrating it.

In my experience, using ADY dry can prolong the duration of fermentation. In fact, when I was trying to clone the Papa John's dough, which has a window of usability of from about three to eight days, I came to the belief that PJ was quite likely using dry ADY in small amounts in its dough. They perhaps could have used IDY in a couple of ways to accomplish the same results but I believe that using the dry ADY would have given them a greater margin of safety. With these thoughts in mind, I conducted an experiment in which I used dry ADY in a PJ clone dough. I described the results of that experiment in Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308 . As can be seen in that post, using dry ADY, especially in modest amounts, can dramatically slow down the rate of fermentation. Had the ADY been prehydrated, it would not have given me a window of usability of several days.

My practice in general is to advise people to rehydrate ADY for normal dough making applications. This is exactly what producers of ADY, who are the experts on their products, recommend to end users.

Peter

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2014, 08:04:06 PM »
thank you peter.   :chef:
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Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2014, 08:11:06 PM »
Maureen, bake time is a huge factor in oven spring.  The faster the bake, the better the puff. For NY, 500 is a little anemic, especially with a stone.  Some electric ovens can be calibrated a few degrees higher. Is there any chance yours can do this?

Many ovens with 500 degree dials will actually reach temps higher than 500, which, for NY, is invaluable.  If you can reach 525, steel plate becomes viable, and nothing can touch steel for NY style.  Before you go shopping for steel, though, you'll want to confirm what temps your oven is actually reaching. The best way to achieve this is with an infrared thermometer.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31021.msg308941#msg308941

Thank you for your input Scott.  I have an infrared thermometer and I will get a temp of my stone the next time around. I have my stone actually is sitting on the floor of my electric oven, because I thought it would allow me to get more heat into it (not sure if that actually makes a difference or not).  I do get a lot of color on the bottom pretty fast, but again, it might be due to the malt powder I was using because I have not taken the actual temperature of my stone to date.  I am curious about the steel you are talking about, I have not read about this subject yet.
Maureen
Maureen

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2014, 08:12:19 PM »
Bob, my oven depth is 19" and change.

Scott, I have zero interest in 750. I'm not sure exactly how hot the stone got on the second highest rack, but I know it was at least 570, which I've found is as hot as I want. My stone did not block the vents when I put it on the oven floor, but it's possible the kiln shelf may be too big to use safely on the oven floor. Doesn't matter, though, because [see first sentence].

The pic below (from April 2 of this year) shows pretty much how I like NY style, regardless of whether it's "right." I don't know if that's my best upskirt pic, but I knew where to find that one. That pizza was baked in my MPO, I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 570 degrees. (I may have shared the temp in my MPO thread.) Any hotter and I get char, which I don't want. My tastes may change, but that's how I like it for now.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2014, 08:21:02 PM »
Thank you for your input Scott.  I have an infrared thermometer and I will get a temp of my stone the next time around. I have my stone actually is sitting on the floor of my electric oven, because I thought it would allow me to get more heat into it (not sure if that actually makes a difference or not).  I do get a lot of color on the bottom pretty fast, but again, it might be due to the malt powder I was using because I have not taken the actual temperature of my stone to date.  I am curious about the steel you are talking about, I have not read about this subject yet.
Maureen

Maureen, I don't know if your oven behaves this way, but as I think I've mentioned, my stone reached 750 on the oven floor while only reaching 635-ish an inch or two higher. For whatever that may be worth.

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2014, 08:43:01 PM »
I know that any time I discuss prehydrating ADY, members will step up and report that they do not do that with their ADY. There is usually not much that I can say about such reports absent a showing of how much ADY was used and the nature and duration of the fermentation. No doubt there are circumstances where the right amount of ADY in the right dough formulation will work. However, what works in a home setting with ADY may not be advisable in a commercial setting where uniformity and consistency of results are a necessity. It would be far better in such a case to use IDY than risk problems with the dough because a pizza operator chose to use ADY without prehydrating it.

In my experience, using ADY dry can prolong the duration of fermentation. In fact, when I was trying to clone the Papa John's dough, which has a window of usability of from about three to eight days, I came to the belief that PJ was quite likely using dry ADY in small amounts in its dough. They perhaps could have used IDY in a couple of ways to accomplish the same results but I believe that using the dry ADY would have given them a greater margin of safety. With these thoughts in mind, I conducted an experiment in which I used dry ADY in a PJ clone dough. I described the results of that experiment in Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308 . As can be seen in that post, using dry ADY, especially in modest amounts, can dramatically slow down the rate of fermentation. Had the ADY been prehydrated, it would not have given me a window of usability of several days.

My practice in general is to advise people to rehydrate ADY for normal dough making applications. This is exactly what producers of ADY, who are the experts on their products, recommend to end users.

Peter

Thank you for the information Peter. I make many other bread products,  using both ADY and IDY and I can tell you I have hydrated and not hydrated ADY,  depending on the recipe,  and have had mixed results based on yeast brand I used. SAF ADY worked great without hydrating in my croissants, but Fleichmann's did not. When I compare the two visually, and by feel, SAF is just a smaller grain, or maybe I am just crazy!! I only use SAF now. In any case, I do appreciate the manufacturer's recommendations to hydrate ADY and don't mind taking that step if I have to.
Maureen