Author Topic: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat  (Read 4639 times)

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Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2014, 01:21:34 PM »
Walt, what is your percent water in your 5 day ferment?

63%


Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2014, 01:21:49 PM »
Walter, what is the stone temp in your top oven?

approx 560

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2014, 07:56:43 PM »
Hi Walter,

I'm not sure if you've already answered this, but what is your salt and yeast percentage for your dough for your 3-5 day cold fermentations, and do you use ADY/IDY/fresh yeast?

 For my latest experiments, I've been doing a 48 hour cold fermentation and use about .45% ADY, 2% barley malt powder instead of sugar, 2% oil and 2% salt. The dough tastes great, but is very extensible when forming,  and I do not get the oven spring on the crust like I would like. I question wheather I need more yeast or is the malt powder contributing to my issue. I do not use diastatic btw. I want to avoid having to make a sponge because I really like the ease and flavors of long, cold fermentation times.

Thanks
Maureen

Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2014, 08:00:59 PM »
Maureen,

What kind and brand of flour are you using, and what is the hydration percent? Also, what kind of oven are you using and what bake temperature and bake time are you using?

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2014, 08:53:23 PM »
Hi Walter,

I'm not sure if you've already answered this, but what is your salt and yeast percentage for your dough for your 3-5 day cold fermentations, and do you use ADY/IDY/fresh yeast?

 For my latest experiments, I've been doing a 48 hour cold fermentation and use about .45% ADY, 2% barley malt powder instead of sugar, 2% oil and 2% salt. The dough tastes great, but is very extensible when forming,  and I do not get the oven spring on the crust like I would like. I question wheather I need more yeast or is the malt powder contributing to my issue. I do not use diastatic btw. I want to avoid having to make a sponge because I really like the ease and flavors of long, cold fermentation times.

Thanks
Maureen

Maureen:  Peter asked important questions.  I use .2 IDY, 1.85 salt, 2% oil and 63% hydration (full strength flour with about a 6-7 minute mix).   No sugar in our dough.  The dough is very easy to work with and gets good oven spring.  Walter

Offline jkb

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2014, 11:17:20 AM »
 
Walt, what is your percent water in your 5 day ferment?



Walter, what is the stone temp in your top oven?


Walter, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2014, 12:12:07 PM »
 



Walter, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


I have researched this for many years. It varies with the wind direction, thermal activity, airfoil configuration the swallow uses, and many more factors that are far too technical for the common man :-D  Walter

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2014, 02:51:29 PM »
Maureen,

What kind and brand of flour are you using, and what is the hydration percent? Also, what kind of oven are you using and what bake temperature and bake time are you using?

Peter

Hi Peter,

I use KASL flour and 60% hydration, which might be too low for the yeast activity as well.  I am using an electric oven with a large stone on the bottom deck of the oven and I bake at 475 F about 11 minutes.

Thanks
Maureen
Maureen

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2014, 02:53:11 PM »
Maureen:  Peter asked important questions.  I use .2 IDY, 1.85 salt, 2% oil and 63% hydration (full strength flour with about a 6-7 minute mix).   No sugar in our dough.  The dough is very easy to work with and gets good oven spring.  Walter

Thank you Walter for sharing. I definitely will try a higher hydration percentage, I believe mine is way too low for the yeast activity.

Maureen
Maureen


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2014, 03:15:30 PM »
Hi Peter,

I use KASL flour and 60% hydration, which might be too low for the yeast activity as well.  I am using an electric oven with a large stone on the bottom deck of the oven and I bake at 475 F about 11 minutes.

Thanks
Maureen
Maureen,

I think you would do better not only to increase the hydration a few percent but also use a higher oven temperature--around 525 degrees F if you can achieve that. But at that temperature, you may want to delete the nondiastatic malt in your formulation or reduce it to one percent. The higher oven temperature along with the increased hydration hopefully will give you a better oven spring. Your bake time should be less than what you have been using but you still want it to be long enough to develop good top and bottom crust coloration without excessive bottom charring and maybe a crispier bottom crust. If you can get the oven spring as you want it, then you can play around with the malt to try to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Peter

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2014, 05:34:53 PM »
Maureen,

I think you would do better not only to increase the hydration a few percent but also use a higher oven temperature--around 525 degrees F if you can achieve that. But at that temperature, you may want to delete the nondiastatic malt in your formulation or reduce it to one percent. The higher oven temperature along with the increased hydration hopefully will give you a better oven spring. Your bake time should be less than what you have been using but you still want it to be long enough to develop good top and bottom crust coloration without excessive bottom charring and maybe a crispier bottom crust. If you can get the oven spring as you want it, then you can play around with the malt to try to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Peter

Thank You Peter - I think you are right about the water and the malt powder. I am getting a really dark crust coloration at 2% malt and 475 degrees.  I can only get to 500 degrees on my oven, but I definitely will try my next dough sans malt and a higher oven temp to see what gives. I have also been using ADY and wonder if I should try IDY at some point, but one experiment  at a time I think!

Maureen

Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2014, 06:12:07 PM »
Maureen,

There is nothing wrong with ADY but it requires prehydrating in part of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes. With IDY, you can just mix it in dry with the flour and other dry ingredients.

Part of the "really dark crust coloration" that you got was no doubt due to the very long bake time that you used, even at the reduced oven temperature. In fact, a long bake at a lower than normal bake temperature is a good way to get crust coloration. In your case, the malt pushed the color over the edge so to speak. Most pizza operators with deck ovens tend to avoid using sugar or other sweeteners in their doughs or keep the amount on the low side because the high deck temperatures can burn the sweetener. A home oven with a pizza stone can tolerate a small amount of sugar in the dough because of its low BTUs. But, even then, it is a good idea to monitor the bottom crust development as the pizza bakes.

I'm confident that you will dial in all of the variables in due course.

Peter


Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2014, 11:12:09 PM »
Maureen,

There is nothing wrong with ADY but it requires prehydrating in part of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes. With IDY, you can just mix it in dry with the flour and other dry ingredients.

Part of the "really dark crust coloration" that you got was no doubt due to the very long bake time that you used, even at the reduced oven temperature. In fact, a long bake at a lower than normal bake temperature is a good way to get crust coloration. In your case, the malt pushed the color over the edge so to speak. Most pizza operators with deck ovens tend to avoid using sugar or other sweeteners in their doughs or keep the amount on the low side because the high deck temperatures can burn the sweetener. A home oven with a pizza stone can tolerate a small amount of sugar in the dough because of its low BTUs. But, even then, it is a good idea to monitor the bottom crust development as the pizza bakes.

I'm confident that you will dial in all of the variables in due course.

Peter

Peter,
Thank you for the advice.  I am definitely keeping my pies in the oven too long.

So, regarding the ADY for pizza making: if I am mixing part of the formula water at 105 degrees with the yeast to proof it, how does that fit in to the calculations for the remaining formula water temperature if I want the finished dough temp between 73-78?  I know how to calculate water temperature normally, but would this bit of warmer water actually make it difficult to figure the remaining water temp? I realize that the water will eventually cool down as the yeast proofs and would no longer be 105 degrees. I guess I should just use the smallest amount of water that I can get away with? 

Maureen. 

Here is a picture of one of my pies- I don't have a pic of the bottom.
Maureen

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2014, 12:24:32 PM »
So, regarding the ADY for pizza making: if I am mixing part of the formula water at 105 degrees with the yeast to proof it, how does that fit in to the calculations for the remaining formula water temperature if I want the finished dough temp between 73-78?  I know how to calculate water temperature normally, but would this bit of warmer water actually make it difficult to figure the remaining water temp? I realize that the water will eventually cool down as the yeast proofs and would no longer be 105 degrees. I guess I should just use the smallest amount of water that I can get away with? 

Maureen. 
Maureen,

Your instincts on the ADY are good. The general rule for prehydrating ADY is to use an amount of the formula water that is about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY. So, for example, if your dough formulation calls for 1g of ADY and the total formula water is, say, 137g, you would use five grams of that water to prehydrate the ADY.  That water would be at about 105 degrees F and the duration of prehydration would be around 10 minutes. The rest of the formula water, 132g, would have its temperature adjusted to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. For a standard home refrigerator, that finished dough temperature would typically be around 75-80 degrees F. Once the ADY has been prehydrated, it can then be added to the rest of the formula water (temperature adjusted) or to the other ingredients in the mixer bowl.

Where many people go wrong in prehydrating ADY is using all of the formula water at around 105 degrees F. That is bound to elevate the finished dough temperature to a much higher value than you want. In can even speed up the fermentation process and cause problems down the line.

Peter

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2014, 01:13:44 PM »
Maureen, you could save yourself a great deal of hassle just by switching to IDY.  Keep a jar in the fridge and add it directly to the water- at whatever temp you wish to work with. No special treatment whatsoever.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2014, 01:44:34 PM »
Scott,

Maureen raised the possibility of using IDY after Walter told her that is what he uses. However, there are people who actually prefer ADY. Even the yeast producers advocate using ADY instead of IDY for dough that is to be refrigerated. This once lead to the exchange I set forth in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10707.msg95811.html#msg95811.

Peter

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2014, 01:53:05 PM »
I am getting a really dark crust coloration at 2% malt and 475 degrees.  I can only get to 500 degrees on my oven, but I definitely will try my next dough sans malt and a higher oven temp to see what gives.

Maureen, bake time is a huge factor in oven spring.  The faster the bake, the better the puff. For NY, 500 is a little anemic, especially with a stone.  Some electric ovens can be calibrated a few degrees higher. Is there any chance yours can do this?

Many ovens with 500 degree dials will actually reach temps higher than 500, which, for NY, is invaluable.  If you can reach 525, steel plate becomes viable, and nothing can touch steel for NY style.  Before you go shopping for steel, though, you'll want to confirm what temps your oven is actually reaching. The best way to achieve this is with an infrared thermometer.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31021.msg308941#msg308941


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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2014, 02:20:44 PM »
However, there are people who actually prefer ADY.

Are there?  Are they forum members?  I've never come across someone who switched from ADY to IDY and then went back, and I've been here for a while :)

As far as the yeast producers stance on IDY in refrigerated doughs, they can make recommendations from now until the cows come home, but none of that can change what I've witnessed with hundreds of doughs, and what other forum members have witnessed with what accounts to most likely thousands of doughs- IDY works stunningly well with extended refrigeration.

I'll concede that there may be someone out there who might actually want the effects of dead yeast that can be obtained with ADY, but I sincerely think that's a very short list- and more likely to be in the industrial realm and not the home baker.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2014, 02:40:24 PM »
Scott,

You are right. The list of ADY users is fairly short. Sometimes members will buy ADY because the forms of IDY at retail often do not use the expression instant dried yeast. It might be bread machine yeast or something else. Once they discover that they can get one- or two-pound bags of IDY for a song, they then usually switch over to IDY.

Ryan has been a regular user of ADY although he may have switched over to IDY or is thinking of doing so. Member November said the following about ADY, at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg34030;topicseen#msg34030:

Yes, I use ADY.  I will probably never use anything but ADY for all of my life.  If I were using IDY, I'd activate it the same way except I would start at 104 F.  After all, the reason for blooming ADY is still present for IDY, you just don't need to bloom it as long.  I'm at a loss as to what I would do to compensate for the absence of ADY's higher dead yeast count.  The higher dead yeast count is the primary reason I use ADY.

ADY was actually developed for home bakers shortly after World War II. It wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that IDY was invented. So there were many years that ADY was used by home bakers.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2014, 04:19:28 PM »
Ryan has been a regular user of ADY although he may have switched over to IDY or is thinking of doing so.

Yeah, I use ADY for NY style, although I've been gradually switching over to IDY with other styles; particularly styles that call for a high yeast percentage (basically stiff cracker style doughs). I didn't realize until today that I was pretty much alone in using ADY. (Scott already knew I use ADY, as he has made an effort to get me to switch.) Honestly, I'm sick of the extra work required with ADY, and I'll probably switch over to IDY very soon, if not with my next batch of NY style dough. The only things that have really kept me from doing it already are fear of change, less forgiveness if my even-smaller measurement ends up a little wrong, and the fact that I make other little changes with almost every batch of dough. Especially now that I have a new oven, which I'm still getting to know, as I think I've only used it a few times for pizza. (Thankfully I have already figured out that this oven is awesome for pizza.)

I've actually already done some pizza-related experimenting in the new oven without even making pizza. For example, I've moved my stone to the second-highest rack position (to be near the broiler, which I still don't know if I'll even use, since this gas oven's ceiling seems to reflect heat back down onto the pizza very well), then cranked up the oven just to find out how hot the stone gets in a higher position than I normally keep it. (It gets at least as hot as 570 in the second highest position, and it gets at least as hot as 750 on the oven floor.) Also, I just ordered an 18x18x1 stone from Axner yesterday, to finally replace my 15.75" x 1/2" (round) stone.

I'll probably make the switch to IDY with my next batch of NY style dough, which I anticipate making in a week or 10 days from now. Can't wait to find out how an inch of thermal mass treats my pizzas.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2014, 04:38:57 PM »
i have 2 21in. round 3quarter in axners still in shipping box if you want to experiment.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2014, 05:35:39 PM »
Seriously? I might. Have to see if my oven is that deep first, though. I'm thinking it's probably only 19"ish.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2014, 05:40:31 PM »
Ryan, you needed to purchase a new stone and you didn't get steel? Seriously?  ;D

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2014, 05:46:25 PM »
I knew that was coming.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2014, 05:47:14 PM »
Did you see the temperatures I can reach with my stone?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.