Author Topic: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat  (Read 4911 times)

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scott123

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2014, 06:01:30 PM »
 ;D 750's fantastic for cordierite, but 570... if you want to be able to explore every possible NY bake time (which, at this point, I would hope that you do), then 570 + cordierite will not achieve that end. You did say 'at least as hot as' so hopefully, in that upper position, you'll be able to flirt with 600. 600 + cordierite is pretty happy.

Btw, for future reference, I'm not sure if you were putting the stone directly on the oven floor, but, with gas ovens, that can get  dangerous, as the stones can block the vents which can cause the flame to extinguish.  There's usually a cut off in place when the flame goes out, but it's better to avoid the situation completely.



Offline Chaze215

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2014, 06:13:00 PM »
Just as an aside to the ady / idy discussion. I've been using ady for a few years now and don't activate it in 105 degree water or anything. I just add it to my mix without any problems. Maybe I would see/taste a difference if I used IDY or activated the ADY? Who knows.
Chaz

Offline pdog

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2014, 06:37:42 PM »
Just as an aside to the ady / idy discussion. I've been using ady for a few years now and don't activate it in 105 degree water or anything. I just add it to my mix without any problems. Maybe I would see/taste a difference if I used IDY or activated the ADY? Who knows.

Same here with ADY- I just throw it into the water and give it a stir and move on.  I have never used IDY - Only ADY and a natural starter. 

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2014, 07:08:52 PM »
you don`t need to proof, bloom, whatever confusing word....toss it in and get on with life.
actually try it if you don`t wanna believe me man.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2014, 07:20:36 PM »
I know that any time I discuss prehydrating ADY, members will step up and report that they do not do that with their ADY. There is usually not much that I can say about such reports absent a showing of how much ADY was used and the nature and duration of the fermentation. No doubt there are circumstances where the right amount of ADY in the right dough formulation will work. However, what works in a home setting with ADY may not be advisable in a commercial setting where uniformity and consistency of results are a necessity. It would be far better in such a case to use IDY than risk problems with the dough because a pizza operator chose to use ADY without prehydrating it.

In my experience, using ADY dry can prolong the duration of fermentation. In fact, when I was trying to clone the Papa John's dough, which has a window of usability of from about three to eight days, I came to the belief that PJ was quite likely using dry ADY in small amounts in its dough. They perhaps could have used IDY in a couple of ways to accomplish the same results but I believe that using the dry ADY would have given them a greater margin of safety. With these thoughts in mind, I conducted an experiment in which I used dry ADY in a PJ clone dough. I described the results of that experiment in Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308 . As can be seen in that post, using dry ADY, especially in modest amounts, can dramatically slow down the rate of fermentation. Had the ADY been prehydrated, it would not have given me a window of usability of several days.

My practice in general is to advise people to rehydrate ADY for normal dough making applications. This is exactly what producers of ADY, who are the experts on their products, recommend to end users.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2014, 08:04:06 PM »
thank you peter.   :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2014, 08:11:06 PM »
Maureen, bake time is a huge factor in oven spring.  The faster the bake, the better the puff. For NY, 500 is a little anemic, especially with a stone.  Some electric ovens can be calibrated a few degrees higher. Is there any chance yours can do this?

Many ovens with 500 degree dials will actually reach temps higher than 500, which, for NY, is invaluable.  If you can reach 525, steel plate becomes viable, and nothing can touch steel for NY style.  Before you go shopping for steel, though, you'll want to confirm what temps your oven is actually reaching. The best way to achieve this is with an infrared thermometer.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31021.msg308941#msg308941

Thank you for your input Scott.  I have an infrared thermometer and I will get a temp of my stone the next time around. I have my stone actually is sitting on the floor of my electric oven, because I thought it would allow me to get more heat into it (not sure if that actually makes a difference or not).  I do get a lot of color on the bottom pretty fast, but again, it might be due to the malt powder I was using because I have not taken the actual temperature of my stone to date.  I am curious about the steel you are talking about, I have not read about this subject yet.
Maureen
Maureen

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2014, 08:12:19 PM »
Bob, my oven depth is 19" and change.

Scott, I have zero interest in 750. I'm not sure exactly how hot the stone got on the second highest rack, but I know it was at least 570, which I've found is as hot as I want. My stone did not block the vents when I put it on the oven floor, but it's possible the kiln shelf may be too big to use safely on the oven floor. Doesn't matter, though, because [see first sentence].

The pic below (from April 2 of this year) shows pretty much how I like NY style, regardless of whether it's "right." I don't know if that's my best upskirt pic, but I knew where to find that one. That pizza was baked in my MPO, I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 570 degrees. (I may have shared the temp in my MPO thread.) Any hotter and I get char, which I don't want. My tastes may change, but that's how I like it for now.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2014, 08:21:02 PM »
Thank you for your input Scott.  I have an infrared thermometer and I will get a temp of my stone the next time around. I have my stone actually is sitting on the floor of my electric oven, because I thought it would allow me to get more heat into it (not sure if that actually makes a difference or not).  I do get a lot of color on the bottom pretty fast, but again, it might be due to the malt powder I was using because I have not taken the actual temperature of my stone to date.  I am curious about the steel you are talking about, I have not read about this subject yet.
Maureen

Maureen, I don't know if your oven behaves this way, but as I think I've mentioned, my stone reached 750 on the oven floor while only reaching 635-ish an inch or two higher. For whatever that may be worth.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2014, 08:43:01 PM »
I know that any time I discuss prehydrating ADY, members will step up and report that they do not do that with their ADY. There is usually not much that I can say about such reports absent a showing of how much ADY was used and the nature and duration of the fermentation. No doubt there are circumstances where the right amount of ADY in the right dough formulation will work. However, what works in a home setting with ADY may not be advisable in a commercial setting where uniformity and consistency of results are a necessity. It would be far better in such a case to use IDY than risk problems with the dough because a pizza operator chose to use ADY without prehydrating it.

In my experience, using ADY dry can prolong the duration of fermentation. In fact, when I was trying to clone the Papa John's dough, which has a window of usability of from about three to eight days, I came to the belief that PJ was quite likely using dry ADY in small amounts in its dough. They perhaps could have used IDY in a couple of ways to accomplish the same results but I believe that using the dry ADY would have given them a greater margin of safety. With these thoughts in mind, I conducted an experiment in which I used dry ADY in a PJ clone dough. I described the results of that experiment in Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308 . As can be seen in that post, using dry ADY, especially in modest amounts, can dramatically slow down the rate of fermentation. Had the ADY been prehydrated, it would not have given me a window of usability of several days.

My practice in general is to advise people to rehydrate ADY for normal dough making applications. This is exactly what producers of ADY, who are the experts on their products, recommend to end users.

Peter

Thank you for the information Peter. I make many other bread products,  using both ADY and IDY and I can tell you I have hydrated and not hydrated ADY,  depending on the recipe,  and have had mixed results based on yeast brand I used. SAF ADY worked great without hydrating in my croissants, but Fleichmann's did not. When I compare the two visually, and by feel, SAF is just a smaller grain, or maybe I am just crazy!! I only use SAF now. In any case, I do appreciate the manufacturer's recommendations to hydrate ADY and don't mind taking that step if I have to.
Maureen

Offline moefefa

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2014, 08:49:22 PM »
Maureen, I don't know if your oven behaves this way, but as I think I've mentioned, my stone reached 750 on the oven floor while only reaching 635-ish an inch or two higher. For whatever that may be worth.

Wow Ryan, that's hot...now I am very curious about how hot mine gets!
Maureen

Offline Chaze215

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2014, 09:14:41 PM »
you don`t need to proof, bloom, whatever confusing word....toss it in and get on with life.
actually try it if you don`t wanna believe me man.
This is what I do
Chaz

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2014, 09:29:49 PM »
We use IDY with ice water to mix our dough.  This makes a great dough that can be used in 3 days and will safely last 7 days in the fridge.  I have never once had it fail us and thus have no interest in changing it.  I was raised in NJ with cake yeast and same day dough but will never go back to that. We make most of our income with our bakery side and are not a big pizza operation but do make 50-100 or so pies a week.  Walter
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 09:34:16 PM by waltertore »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2014, 09:32:29 PM »
This is what I do
really man....is anyone here actually having any fun making pizzas? sometimes i think it would be more interesting to watch my gf`s dishwater.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2014, 09:34:53 PM »
We use IDY with ice water to mix our dough.  This makes a great dough that can be used in 3 days and will safely last 7 days in the fridge.  I have never once had it fail us and thus have no interest in changing it.  We make most of our income with our bakery side and are not a big pizza operation but do make 50-100 or so pies a week.  Walter
nice pie dude...i know you and the kids have a lot of fun in your kitchen.   :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2014, 09:36:02 PM »
Walter,

The method you use is one of the methods I had in mind in my last post to make an IDY-based dough that has a wide window of usability. Another method is to add the IDY to the dough toward the end of the kneading process.

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2014, 09:40:08 PM »
nice pie dude...i know you and the kids have a lot of fun in your kitchen.   :chef:

Thanks Bob!  We do have fun and I am itching to get back to it.  You can have this summer vacation for teachers............   Walter


Offline waltertore

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2014, 09:47:34 PM »
Walter,

The method you use is one of the methods I had in mind in my last post to make an IDY-based dough that has a wide window of usability. Another method is to add the IDY to the dough toward the end of the kneading process.

Peter

Peter:  I have come up with this formula over the past couple of years.  It sort of has come to pass from my little tweaks that started with our tap water that comes out near ice water temps in the cold months here.  I add the ice water first into our bowl, then the flour, then IDY/salt on top of the flour, and mix until the dough comes together then add the oil.  I had some of my NJ family in this week and last night we did our first pizza party with dough at 5 days on Tuesday and the second party with the dough at 7 days last night.  It was still great to work with and came out wonderful in taste/texture/looks.  I now have a formula that we can make on thursday or friday and will be ready monday-friday.  This makes things very easy.  Walter
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 10:02:44 PM by waltertore »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2014, 08:50:20 PM »
;D 750's fantastic for cordierite, but 570... if you want to be able to explore every possible NY bake time (which, at this point, I would hope that you do), then 570 + cordierite will not achieve that end. You did say 'at least as hot as' so hopefully, in that upper position, you'll be able to flirt with 600. 600 + cordierite is pretty happy.

Here ya go, Scott.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2014, 08:54:29 PM »
Here ya go, Scott.

*crossing myself* You have my blessing  :-D

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: a 5 day cold ferment pie-hard to beat
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2014, 09:13:04 PM »
I've just found out that 605 is actually a pretty low reading with the stone in that position. 610-615 seems to be more normal. And you can't necessarily tell from the first pic, but that stone position is very high. Here's another pic, to show how high the stone is. (The shiny part in the top/middle is the broiler.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


 

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