Author Topic: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!  (Read 25770 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2006, 01:57:16 PM »
Harv,

It is a fact that square/rectangular ovens have corners... corners are not good for wood burning ovens!!!

Neapolitan pizza must be baked in a Neapolitan oven.† All other pizza would benefit from a neapolitan oven.

However in this thread we were talking of round vs square/rectangular (barrel), and again we talk about corners vs a smother flow...

Your question was like (to me): " I know that for a Ferrari or a racing car the round wheels are better but what do you think about SUV's with square wheels.???...."

Good luck

Marco
« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 04:04:34 PM by pizzanapoletana »


Offline Harv

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2006, 04:50:10 PM »
That's just a silly analogy.  Barrel vault ovens are in use by professionals in numerous places in the US and around the world for that matter.  I doubt the owners of these ovens are throwing away 25% of their products because they are not baked properly and then scratching their heads and wondering what keeps going wrong.  I hate to break it to you but round or dome ovens have dead spots also.  They may not be in the same places or of the same dimesions, but they are there.  I also don't know of too many people that bake tiny little pizzas or breads in the corners of their ovens, most use the middle area.
And how would a long-baking, Chicago-style pizza benefit from a Neapolitan oven? (that's rhetorical I don't need a reply)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 05:00:06 PM by Harv »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2006, 05:34:38 PM »
I found silly your opening argument on a pizza not noticing in which oven is being baked. Obviously you never baked pizza in different wood burning ovens....

ONE THING ABOVE ALL: Pizza needs to be baked with a live flame at high temperature. Bread needs a much lower temperature and not a live flame. Therefore the poor design of a barrel ovens is not noted that much by baking bread as in baking pizza.  Please show me any professional pizzeria with a barrel ovens and let's discuss their product.

However, also the best breads I know are still baked in rounds ovens, in very large batches, with perfect results....

I have worked alongside professional bakers, pizzamakers and oven builders and have studied and tested what I am talking about.

NB: You seam not to have seen many professional trained wood ovens pizzamaker, as the pizza should never been baked in the center by itself, but we bake 5-6 pizza at the same time, for 30-45 seconds and take all the available space, including the middle of the oven...

I am sharing my knowledge (which has been demonstrated more then once on this forum) and I am genualy sorry when I read of people making wrong decision.... I just wish you had access to both type of ovens for testing and then start your project...

Good luck again....

Offline Harv

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2006, 07:02:08 PM »
Marco-  From a scientific perspective, someone could take what you consider the perfect oven and measure the temperatures, air currents, thermal conductivities etc.   Using that information, construct an cube shaped oven with gas burners,ceramic materials, convection fans, and other needed items to mimic the thermal characteristics of a Neapolitan oven.  This would likely be too expensive to be practical, but if people can land things on Mars I'm sure they could reproduce the thermal environment inside an oven.  The poor little pizza placed into such a beast would not know or care about the shape because it would see the same temperature profile.

Finally, I have enjoyed our spirited discussion but I will rest with these thoughts:  In pizza experience you win hands down.  I have never even eaten what you would call a Neapolitan pizza.  However, I'm not sure I have much interest in it.   Though I'll give it a try when my oven is built just to do the experiment.  As I indicated previously, I have other intrests such as bread baking, roasting, and drying meats and fruits.  For this I want a heavily clad oven to retain heat for long periods, and I like the barrel vault design.  So I know going into this project that you can't have an oven that's perfect for everything, so don't feel sorry for me about my choice of oven.  I'm sure it will do a much better job than my gas oven and won't heat up my kitchen in the summer.  Our views may differ but I can admire your passion for authenticity.

     

Offline itsinthesauce

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2006, 09:15:33 PM »
I think that you think too much of yourself as the overall answer to the perfect pizza. Where I grew up,, you would be known as a pompous #$@. IMO.

Offline mmarston

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2006, 04:12:25 PM »
For what it's worth here's a picture of the oven at American Flatbread in Burlington VT. It holds 6 largish pizzzas. Their Vermont version of California style Pizzas cook in 2-3 minutes. I suspect they might be willing to share oven design ideas if you inquire.

More info;  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1404.0.html
http://www.americanflatbread.com/
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Offline primo

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2006, 12:09:34 AM »
Have any of you tried Rado's designs?

   http://www.traditionaloven.com/ovens.html

Offline Fio

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2006, 10:30:20 AM »
Have any of you tried Rado's designs?

   http://www.traditionaloven.com/ovens.html

I looked into Rado's designs.  The website is fantastic, though I cannot vouch for the integrity of the design.  He's got a huge following, worldwide, so I would say build with confidence.

Nonetheless, because his design is for a retained heat bread oven, and not a direct fire pizza oven, I followed a different path.
Since joining this forum, I've begun using words like "autolyze" and have become anal about baker's percents.  My dough is forever changed.

Offline primo

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2006, 12:17:09 PM »
I looked into Rado's designs.† The website is fantastic, though I cannot vouch for the integrity of the design.† He's got a huge following, worldwide, so I would say build with confidence.

Nonetheless, because his design is for a retained heat bread oven, and not a direct fire pizza oven, I followed a different path.

That's unfortunate because what I really want to build is an oven for pizza and anything else, a plus and not a prerequisite.  Do you know of design, book or web site were I can get more info thatís more exclusively designed for pizza, a blue print? 

This is a great site and thereís a lot of info on this site but it's kind of scattered.


Offline Fio

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2006, 03:03:38 PM »
That's unfortunate because what I really want to build is an oven for pizza and anything else, a plus and not a prerequisite.† Do you know of design, book or web site were I can get more info thatís more exclusively designed for pizza, a blue print?†

This is a great site and thereís a lot of info on this site but it's kind of scattered.


fornobravo.com is THE site for building a true pizza oven. http://www.fornobravo.com/pompeii_oven/pompeii_oven.html

Also, join the forum and spend a good couple weeks reading all the posts.† The forum is more valuable than the plans, IMHO.

[NOTE: If you read this thread, you will no doubt find some very strong differences of opinion.  I did not let naysayers and skeptics ruin my enthusiasm.  I made my oven using the Pompeii plans, and I'm extremely happy.  Bottom line - do the research, make your decision, build your oven and have fun]
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 03:16:20 PM by Fio »
Since joining this forum, I've begun using words like "autolyze" and have become anal about baker's percents.  My dough is forever changed.

Offline sacwoodpusher

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2010, 08:27:17 PM »
I have heard the argument of round vs. barrel vault ad naseum.

Being a BSME and an MSME dropout (I changed my major to comp sci with 2 credits to go)......

We have several factors here, and 2 different circumstances, transient and steady state:

Durring heat up, ie the transient state, domes are more efficient in that they contain more volume per less brick mass than barrel vaults....for a given thickness of brick.......This means that a dome oven the same thickness as a barrel vault oven will heat up quicker.

After your oven has been brought up to temperature, and you are essentially in "steady state"......, both ovens are identical.....

When you remove the fire and place an insulated oven door in the opening......the barrel vault will lose heat a little slower than a dome.

Solution to all of the above.......make your oven walls thinner or lighter if you want rapid heating, or use alternate materials for your oven interior like a terracotta oven insert.

It ain't witchcraft....it's just thermodynamics and heat transfer, and it's closer to common sense than you might think.

They guys on the Forno Bravo Forum forget that the reason ovens are round domes or barrel vaulted is that is how you keep bricks from falling down IF YOU DON'T HAVE STEEL.

Keep the Roman Toga and their various types of parties.....and use modern engineering. The best of all worlds is a few courses of brick stacked on end to a height of 12 inches, straight up, but round, with a sheet of steel laid on top.....add insulation....oh, and use steel to support the door opening too.....you will have an easy oven, it can be built in a day....add another day for insulation and stucco......

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 08:29:19 PM by sacwoodpusher »

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2010, 08:55:31 PM »
SWP,  thanks for making me re read an old thread.  It had a lot to do with the desicion to build a round pompeii style oven.  After having built one and researching the topic for many years,  I have to agree with Marco.  It may not be magic,  but its more than simpe thermodynamics.  Its an equation that involves measurements and materials.  The problem with your its so simple explanation is that its really not that simple.  There is a serious relationship between dome height that must be considered,  and an issue with using the right materials,  with the proper thermodynamic properties.  Again,  its not magic,  but there is much more to it than you think.  If you dont believe me,  show me a picture of a pizza made in an oven that was built in a day,  that looks ANYTHING like an authentic neapolitan pizza from Naples.  After,  show me one that can pump out 500+ per day that look like all look like they came off of the postcard from naples.   I'll be waiting.  I will tell you,  to this day,  Marco has been wrong about very very little. -marc
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:02:17 PM by widespreadpizza »

Offline sacwoodpusher

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2010, 12:07:17 AM »
OK.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2010, 01:44:46 AM »
My personal opinion is that this user, is a user.  I  think that he is the builder, whoreing his cheap wares out to the forum.  I am willing to risk punishment from the powers that be if I am wrong.

http://norcalovenworks.blogspot.com/

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13337

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12557.0.html

Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Matthew

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2010, 05:48:23 AM »
My personal opinion is that this user, is a user.  I  think that he is the builder, whoreing his cheap wares out to the forum.  I am willing to risk punishment from the powers that be if I am wrong.

http://norcalovenworks.blogspot.com/

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13337

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12557.0.html



I was going to say; he's pretty knowledgeable for a guy who required guidance from his "Neighbor" on how to use it.
Dude, seriously....If you want to gain the respect of the people on this forum...How about not starting off with a BS 1st post.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 05:51:01 AM by Matthew »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2010, 08:43:03 PM »
Well, I am going to have to agree with a lot of what he says.  A beehive oven is the simplest to build with mud or mud brick.  Next would be the Pompeian style oven with brick, then a low-dome type or barrel oven,  with a square oven not practical with standard masonry units alone. 

When heat is discussed in relationship to the dome "focusing" it, it just applies to active heating elements.  Radiant heat is disseminated in all directions equally for equal differentials of thermal conductivity.  No matter what shape oven you have, if the thermal mass is all heated to the same temperature, there are no hot or cool spots, either in the mass or in the radiant energy available at any given unobstructed point inside the typical personal oven (assuming no opening for a door).

So, the main point is to build whatever type you like, then insulate the crap out of it, under and over, and learn the firing and cooking regime that works for your particular oven.

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2010, 09:17:13 PM »
They guys on the Forno Bravo Forum forget that the reason ovens are round domes or barrel vaulted is that is how you keep bricks from falling down IF YOU DON'T HAVE STEEL.

Keep the Roman Toga and their various types of parties.....and use modern engineering. The best of all worlds is a few courses of brick stacked on end to a height of 12 inches, straight up, but round, with a sheet of steel laid on top.....add insulation....oh, and use steel to support the door opening too.....you will have an easy oven, it can be built in a day....add another day for insulation and stucco......

I'm sure that Marco probably feels differently, but I strongly resonate with the simplicity/frugality of a flat steel ceiling. I'm probably at least five years away from a WFO, but, when I take the plunge, this is most likely how I'll approach it. 


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2010, 09:42:23 PM »
SWP,  I am not sure if your response above with the picture and "OK" was an answer to my picture challenge,  but if it was,  it failed.  If that is your idea of what a Neapolitan pizza looks like,  its just wrong.  And for now it proves marcos point.  He mentions corners in his argument.  Those make for stagnant heat.  When a domed oven is heated from the side,  the heat and flame roll across the top of the dome and force heat right down on top of the pizza.  The heat is intense,  and at least for now,  thats not what you have going in that oven.  BTW I just read your thread in your other thread,  I am not trying to be argumentative at all,  but I strongly disagree with your statements.  I think most other members would be able to tell you that I don't sit around bashing everyone that comes on here when they are new.  And BTW this site is lucky to have some professionals on it but 99% of us are amateurs. -marc
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:51:06 PM by widespreadpizza »

buceriasdon

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2010, 07:34:15 AM »
A flat steel ceiling would work except not everywhere. Certainly not here where I live, within a few months rust flakes would be raining down on your pizza. One of the prices I pay for living next to the ocean.
Don


I'm sure that Marco probably feels differently, but I strongly resonate with the simplicity/frugality of a flat steel ceiling. I'm probably at least five years away from a WFO, but, when I take the plunge, this is most likely how I'll approach it. 

Offline sacwoodpusher

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Re: Barrel vault oven vs. "Pompeii" dome oven: ARRGH!
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2011, 10:53:23 PM »
SWP,  I am not sure if your response above with the picture and "OK" was an answer to my picture challenge,  but if it was,  it failed.  If that is your idea of what a Neapolitan pizza looks like,  its just wrong.  And for now it proves marcos point.  He mentions corners in his argument.  Those make for stagnant heat.  When a domed oven is heated from the side,  the heat and flame roll across the top of the dome and force heat right down on top of the pizza.  The heat is intense,  and at least for now,  thats not what you have going in that oven.  BTW I just read your thread in your other thread,  I am not trying to be argumentative at all,  but I strongly disagree with your statements.  I think most other members would be able to tell you that I don't sit around bashing everyone that comes on here when they are new.  And BTW this site is lucky to have some professionals on it but 99% of us are amateurs. -marc

Well.....no that was one of my earlier pizzas. This one is not perfect either, but it is a 85% hydration dough, fired pretty hot....and I have learned how to fire the oven.  I gotta get some points for even getting this one on the peel.



 

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