Author Topic: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???  (Read 3757 times)

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Offline AJ72

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Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« on: March 31, 2014, 04:43:43 PM »
Guys I've been making killer NY pies at home in my 500 oven on a baking stone.  I've been using All Trumps Flour with the traditional Lehmann recipe.  However, I've been getting inconsistent results because I don't have a mixer so I am forced to hand kneed and I feel that All Trumps is unforgiving to error.  With All Trumps it's hit or miss.  When it's on it's perfect but when it's not it can be disappointing.  In researching this forum I've come across multiple threads and I found myself enjoying scott123's comments on flour.  Like Scott I am a fan of bleached bromated flours.  I would like a flour that would give me the crust of a traditional NY street pie while using a lower protein content.  Scott's list recommends many flours in the 12.6% range however I feel that is too low for my preference and would rather stay in the mid 13% range.  I'm not comfortable dropping from 14.2% high gluten down to 12.6% basic bread flour protein content.  So after doing my research the 3 flours that keep coming up are GM Remarkable (13.6%), Cargill Spring King (13.2%), and Con Agra Producer (13.4%).  If you had a choice of these 3 flours which one would you recommend in order for me to get a classic NY street Pie?  Thanks in advance  :)


Offline Chaze215

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 06:05:59 PM »
AJ, I've been using AT as well for my NY style pies in my wood fired oven. I just picked up some Full Strength bromated flour on the recommendations of Scott, Walter and a few others. I picked it up at RD. I don't know if you have access to one or not. I have yet to use it so I can't give u any feedback in that regards.
Chaz

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 06:31:39 PM »
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour bleached and bromated 12.9% protein http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category

Been through two 50lb bags since September using it for pizza and bread  ;D
Mary Ann

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 08:22:03 PM »
Another good one is GM Full Strength, bleached, bromated.  Got the tip from Walter, and haven't looked back.  Great for bread also.

Online waltertore

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 09:03:41 PM »
Another good one is GM Full Strength, bleached, bromated.  Got the tip from Walter, and haven't looked back.  Great for bread also.

Bigmoose:  I love the FS for pizza, All Trumps for bagels, and this flour for our artisan breads(not bromated or bleached).  I get it from GFS and find it is better than Harvest king which I use to get but can't anymore.  Walter

http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/bakery-a-patent-flour-malted-50-lb/133721000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2014, 09:45:51 PM »
Walt, is there somewhere on here I can find more about your formula and work flow for your bagels using AT? I never made bagels and would like to give it a go sometime. Thanks!
Chaz

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2014, 10:05:07 PM »
Thanks guys.  It looks like everyone is recommending bread flour for NY pizzas.  I find that interesting.  Mary Ann have you tried anything in the mid 13% range and if so how did they compare to best bakers?  I'm leaning towards best bakers since I prefer 12.9% to the 12.6% of full strength.  So nobody recommends any of the flours in the original post?...

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 10:18:20 PM »
I know scott123 is a BIG fan of Spring King. Maybe he will chime in at some point.
Chaz

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 10:19:05 PM »
Thanks guys.  It looks like everyone is recommending bread flour for NY pizzas.  I find that interesting.  Mary Ann have you tried anything in the mid 13% range and if so how did they compare to best bakers?  I'm leaning towards best bakers since I prefer 12.9% to the 12.6% of full strength.  So nobody recommends any of the flours in the original post?...

I have not tried anything in that range but before I knew any better I was using KASL flour for NY style which is 14.2%.
Mary Ann

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 06:20:11 AM »
One of our members, Jamie, who runs a successful pizzeria with his brother in the Northeast (I think it is in southern NH), uses the Spring King flour and really likes it, as he so noted in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31012.msg308871#msg308871 . The pizzas might not be quite NY style but there are some similarities. As best we can tell, Papa Gino's, a successful regional pizza chain with around 200 stores in New England, also uses The Spring King flour. I have had their pizzas on a few occasions and they are very good, better than most chain pizza in my opinion.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 06:22:22 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline deb415611

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 07:14:58 AM »
I know scott123 is a BIG fan of Spring King. Maybe he will chime in at some point.

I have been using Spring King for a little while and like it.  I just finished a bag and asked Scott if he still liked Spring King or if there is something else that I should try.  His reply was to stay with the Spring King
Deb

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2014, 08:29:26 AM »
Walter, you are going to make me learn again!  ;D

What did you find different using Bakery A Patent Flour for your artisan breads in lieu of GM Full Strength?  Is it the desire for a nonbleached, non bromated?  How much oven spring did you loose without the bromation?  Looking at RD and GFS off the shelf, I find no "strong" flours that aren't bleached and bromated.  I bet GFS would order me a 50# bag with no problem of the Bakery A Patent Flour.

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2014, 08:36:55 AM »
Walt, is there somewhere on here I can find more about your formula and work flow for your bagels using AT? I never made bagels and would like to give it a go sometime. Thanks!

give peter reinharts bagel recipe a shot.  They come out really nice.  Walter

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 08:39:03 AM »
Walter, you are going to make me learn again!  ;D

What did you find different using Bakery A Patent Flour for your artisan breads in lieu of GM Full Strength?  Is it the desire for a nonbleached, non bromated?  How much oven spring did you loose without the bromation?  Looking at RD and GFS off the shelf, I find no "strong" flours that aren't bleached and bromated.  I bet GFS would order me a 50# bag with no problem of the Bakery A Patent Flour.

Bigmoose:  I like our artisan breads to have that non bleached color when finished.  It is subtle but I like it.  Oven spring is not an issue for me with the non bromated flour.  I order it from their online truck delivery page.  It comes only in 50lb bags. Walter

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 09:07:14 AM »
One of our members, Jamie, who runs a successful pizzeria with his brother in the Northeast (I think it is in southern NH), uses the Spring King flour and really likes it, as he so noted in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31012.msg308871#msg308871 . The pizzas might not be quite NY style but there are some similarities. As best we can tell, Papa Gino's, a successful regional pizza chain with around 200 stores in New England, also uses The Spring King flour. I have had their pizzas on a few occasions and they are very good, better than most chain pizza in my opinion.

Peter

Thanks Peter but I'm not interested in making a pizza that is better than most chains lol but I understand your reply.  Even though I am making this pizza in my home oven my goal is to make the best crust in the history of NYC (I set the bar high in everything I do ;)) lol.  I really am looking for that classic NY dough.  I have pulled it off with All Trumps but I can't pull it off every time.  Hopefully I can find a flour which produces similar results with more forgiveness to protocol.  It seems to me based on specs that GM remarkable is the same as All Trumps but with less protein.  Theory says I should try that next but it seems very few around here have had experience with it.  Best bakers seems like a good candidate at 12.9%. Hopefully scott123 chimes in with his opinion.  Thanks to all for your advice.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 01:42:47 PM »
I just came up with another idea.  I also have King Midas Special at my home but never considered using it to cut the All Trumps with it.  With All Trumps being at 14.2% protein and King Midas being at 12.6% my math tells me that cutting them 50/50 would give me 13.4% protein.  Would this be a good way to get what I'm looking for?  I have read on this forum of people cutting All Trumps but I'm not sure if by 50%.

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2014, 01:48:26 PM »
Thanks Peter but I'm not interested in making a pizza that is better than most chains lol but I understand your reply.  Even though I am making this pizza in my home oven my goal is to make the best crust in the history of NYC (I set the bar high in everything I do ;)) lol.  I really am looking for that classic NY dough.  I have pulled it off with All Trumps but I can't pull it off every time.  Hopefully I can find a flour which produces similar results with more forgiveness to protocol.  It seems to me based on specs that GM remarkable is the same as All Trumps but with less protein.  Theory says I should try that next but it seems very few around here have had experience with it.  Best bakers seems like a good candidate at 12.9%. Hopefully scott123 chimes in with his opinion.  Thanks to all for your advice.

AJ72: I grew up in the NYC pizza world.  I can assure  you Full Strength will give you a classic NYC crust.  I am talking the lat 50's through the late 70's.  Today most NYC metro area pizza is garbage.  My mother came here from Italy and  I learned about dough as a child.  My benchmark is very high and our pies meet it pretty much on a daily basis.  Our pies are baked in 1970's blodgett 1000 ovens which are still considered by many the best NY style oven ever made.  Walter
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 01:59:50 PM by waltertore »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2014, 05:09:02 PM »
AJ, I don't know anything about King Midas flour but by cutting AT by 50%, you are also cutting the bromate by 50% as well which may effect the final product. Just my 2 cents.
Chaz

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2014, 05:27:48 PM »
Chaz I am pretty sure King Midas is bromated but I will definitely check when I get home to make sure.  Walter your dough looks beautiful.  Is that 100% Full Strength?  Also since you use All Trumps for bagels I'm sure you have tried it for pizza dough.  If you have then please post your analysis between the two in making pizza with both and the advantages of using Full Strength over All Trumps.  Your reply would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2014, 05:44:47 PM »
AJ, the simple answer: Spring King.  As Chaz pointed out, I'm a BIG fan :)

I do feel pretty strongly, though, that, with very slight kneading modifications, you can get the same pizza out of 12.6% flours as you can 13.4%, so I'm a pretty big fan of almost every flour on my list. The one outlier would be Occident, at 12.2.  Norma, along with other members, has done some amazing things with Occident, and Occident has an uncanny ability to show up in some communities where nothing else is available. At 12.2, I'm not as gung ho about recommending Occident, but I feel pretty strongly that it's better than All Trumps- it's easier, imo, to push a weaker flour to give you more gluten than it is to prevent an extremely strong flour from giving you too much.

I talked about this subject, in depth, quite recently

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30887.msg308979#msg308979

While I do feel strongly that these flours can all make the same world class pie, if you had multiple options to choose from, this is the order I'd go with (from more preferred to less):

Progressive Baker Spring King   13.2
ADM Commander   13
Conagra Magnifico Special   13
GM* High Power   13
Progressive Baker Spring Hearth   13
Conagra Producer   13.4
GM* Best Baker's   12.9
GM* Full Strength   12.6
Conagra King Midas Special   12.6
GM* Superlative   12.6
GM* XXXX Patent   12.6
ADM Majestic   12.6
ADM Springup   12.6
Conagra Occident   12.2
Bay State Milling Perfect Diamond   12.5?
Bay State Milling Aristocrat   ???

*General Mills or Pillsbury or Gold Medal (all the same company)

Disclaimer: In terms of what we know about these, I think there's still data to be collected, so this list will most likely change.

Also, I wrote the BSM rep and am awaiting numbers for Perfect Diamond and Aristocrat.

Edit: these are all the bromated versions.  I do not recommend any of these flours in their unbromated versions.  For those in the West who don't have access to bromated flour, right now, I'm leaning towards a Pendleton Power/Mondako blend.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 06:02:37 PM by scott123 »