Author Topic: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???  (Read 2050 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2014, 05:55:29 PM »
Scott,

Is there a reason, apart from the bromate aspect, that you did not mention any of the Pendleton Mills flours, particularly in the context of pizza places out west that make what they would consider a NY style pizza? Or are you saying that a flour must be bromated to make a legitimate NY style pizza?

Peter


Online scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2014, 06:19:24 PM »
Peter, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I was meaning to bring up the bromated aspect, but forgot. I've now edited my last post.

Between the protein content and bromated/unbromated status, I think bromate has a slight edge.  In other words, any bromated flour will produce better results than any unbromated flour. Within the general scheme of things, though, I'm not really talking about good and bad pizza, but, rather, ideal and slightly less than ideal.

As far as legitimacy goes... I think bromate is a pretty big part of NY style pizza.  If, say, I was part of an organization that certifies pizzerias as being authentic (like the VPN , but more honest and less mercenary :) ) then I'd probably require a pizzeria owner to use bromated flour- UNLESS they lived in a part of country/world where bromated flour wasn't available.  In other words, I do hold up bromated flour as an ideal, but I wouldn't penalize people because of the shortsightedness of their lawmakers.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 06:39:09 PM by scott123 »

Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2014, 07:27:27 PM »
Peter, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I was meaning to bring up the bromated aspect, but forgot. I've now edited my last post.

Between the protein content and bromated/unbromated status, I think bromate has a slight edge.  In other words, any bromated flour will produce better results than any unbromated flour. Within the general scheme of things, though, I'm not really talking about good and bad pizza, but, rather, ideal and slightly less than ideal.

As far as legitimacy goes... I think bromate is a pretty big part of NY style pizza.  If, say, I was part of an organization that certifies pizzerias as being authentic (like the VPN , but more honest and less mercenary :) ) then I'd probably require a pizzeria owner to use bromated flour- UNLESS they lived in a part of country/world where bromated flour wasn't available.  In other words, I do hold up bromated flour as an ideal, but I wouldn't penalize people because of the shortsightedness of their lawmakers.

Other than from a historical perspective, why do you advocate bromated flour? I associate bromated flour with better oven spring but on the other hand I don't associate NY style pizza (the kind sold by slice rather than the coal or neo-ny) with particularly high oven spring.
Is it a flavor thing?

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2014, 08:08:43 PM »
Thanks for the list Scott.  I really appreciate it :)

Online scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2014, 08:41:45 PM »
I don't associate NY style pizza (the kind sold by slice rather than the coal or neo-ny) with particularly high oven spring.

I associate NY style slices with oven spring. Not the typical all trumps, same day, densely crumbed, flavorless garbage that's all over the place today, but the slice of 30 years ago- the slice worth eating- that had spring. 

The crusts of yesteryear were never that high, but they were airy.  Look at Walter's crust.  He presses out a slightly larger rim than I do, but it's still fully within the parameters for a classic old school slice- and has plenty of spring.  Walter and I are working with the same memories- our time machines are set to the same dates. And it isn't just because of some sentimental reverie of the good old days.  The pizza was better.

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2014, 08:42:13 PM »
Thanks for the list Scott.  I really appreciate it :)

Sure thing, AJ! Let us know how it works out for you.

Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 08:50:19 PM »
Here are crumb shots for slices from 3 pizzerias you have endorsed as the real deal:-

http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2012/07/20120709-213823-vitos-pepperoni.jpg
http://slice.seriouseats.com/assets_c/2011/01/20110120-ptusa-upskirt-hs-thumb-500x236-135051.jpg
http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2012/11/20121016-williamsburg-pizza-07-610.jpg

None of them I would call "airy" or possess characteristics that I would call "bromate unique"

Offline jsaras

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 09:42:35 PM »
I'm guessing that's Vito's here in LA?  He uses unbromated Mondako (those are the only bags of flour I've ever seen in the store).  His crust has the perfect amount of chew (a crispness, but not a crunch) and it has a lightness, but I wouldn't call it "airy" per se.  It's the type of pizza that you realize how great it is as you're half way through your second slice.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2014, 09:48:36 PM »
Correct!
First is Vito's, second is Pizza Town (NJ) and the third is Williamsburg Pizza.
All of them represent, at least visually, what I think of as a legit NY style slice. My confusion lies with what bromated flour has to do with any of this especially seeing Vito's doesn't use bromated flour.

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2014, 09:52:22 PM »
Here are crumb shots for slices from 3 pizzerias you have endorsed as the real deal:-

...and, if you've read my reviews of the two places I've been to, you'll have noticed that while I thought they were representative of the best slices in the area, I still had/have issues.  At the time, I rated Pizza Town 8-8.5 out of 10, and, while I've never rated Williamsburg, I'd say 9's about right.  These are 8-9 pies in a sea of 3s.

If you look at all the pies, the undercrusts are typically breathtaking (relatively easy to do with the right oven), the thickness factors are spot on and the cheese is flawlessly melted. The deduction, the single aspect that brings these from 10 to 8-9, is the lack of spring.

Oven spring is the core of my being. I use oven spring friendly bromated flour and I bake in an oven spring friendly fast bake environment. Just because oven spring makes my world go round doesn't mean I can't appreciate less than perfect pizzerias that are a thousandfold better than the other pizzerias in the NY area.

It's all relative ;D
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 09:54:31 PM by scott123 »


Offline Seven

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2014, 10:14:05 PM »
Scott, any pictures of your NY pies? I consider myself a Scott123 disciple (although using aluminum instead of steel) but don't think I've ever seen one of your pizzas.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2014, 10:30:13 PM »
Sure thing, AJ! Let us know how it works out for you.

Will post pics Monday morning...

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2014, 10:31:16 PM »
Scott, any pictures of your NY pies?

John, no, I have no photos.  I was actually given a camera last Fall by Jim (Red Kiosk), and I've been promising photos since that time, but I haven't been able to work out the logistics.  I haven't made pizza in at least five months, and, because of a family situation that I'm dealing with, it might end up being another five.

Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2014, 10:46:50 PM »
John, no, I have no photos.  I was actually given a camera last Fall by Jim (Red Kiosk), and I've been promising photos since that time, but I haven't been able to work out the logistics.  I haven't made pizza in at least five months, and, because of a family situation that I'm dealing with, it might end up being another five.

Iím sorry to hear of your unfortunate family situation and logistical problems. I am thankful, at least, whatever you are dealing with has not prevented you from taking the time to post over the last 5 months.

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2014, 11:28:35 PM »
Thanks.  Even though my post count has bottomed out a few times in the last 5 months, I'm still doing my best to not just be there for my immediate family, but to be there for my extended family (you guys) as well.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2014, 11:20:51 AM »
Ugh decisions decisions.  My place carries both Full Strength and Best Bakers.  I like the higher protein in Best Bakers but I also like Walter's pic and testimony about old school NY pizza which is what I'm looking for.  Now I have to decide which one to pick up later today.  I know Scott likes both of them.  Don't know what to do LOL.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 11:40:36 AM »
Ugh decisions decisions.  My place carries both Full Strength and Best Bakers.  I like the higher protein in Best Bakers but I also like Walter's pic and testimony about old school NY pizza which is what I'm looking for.  Now I have to decide which one to pick up later today.  I know Scott likes both of them.  Don't know what to do LOL.


AJ,

I've not tried FS but I can offer you some testimonials on Best Bakers.  Check out these pictures

NY slices http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21830.msg309487#msg309487

Sicilian http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28922.0

Boule http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26375.msg297749#msg297749
Mary Ann

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 12:53:11 PM »
AJ, you can't lose with either flour.  Get the Best Bakers. The higher protein won't prevent you from making a Walter pie and is closer to your original intent of not reducing your protein too drastically- which I think was/is a sensible inclination.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2014, 01:12:44 PM »
Thanks Mary Ann and Scott!  Best Bakers it is  :)

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2014, 03:52:11 PM »
@Scott, I got it from a Con Agra rep that Occident is 12.4% protein, which is a little higher than the 12.2 you stated. I like and use Occident for pizza and breads, it is available to me while a lot of these other flours are not. Occident seems to be very popular in areas of NY state that have an Amish population nearby, not really sure of the connection, but I think it has something to do with the supply source.


 

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