Author Topic: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???  (Read 5877 times)

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scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2014, 08:42:13 PM »
Thanks for the list Scott.  I really appreciate it :)

Sure thing, AJ! Let us know how it works out for you.


Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 08:50:19 PM »
Here are crumb shots for slices from 3 pizzerias you have endorsed as the real deal:-

http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2012/07/20120709-213823-vitos-pepperoni.jpg
http://slice.seriouseats.com/assets_c/2011/01/20110120-ptusa-upskirt-hs-thumb-500x236-135051.jpg
http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2012/11/20121016-williamsburg-pizza-07-610.jpg

None of them I would call "airy" or possess characteristics that I would call "bromate unique"

Offline jsaras

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 09:42:35 PM »
I'm guessing that's Vito's here in LA?  He uses unbromated Mondako (those are the only bags of flour I've ever seen in the store).  His crust has the perfect amount of chew (a crispness, but not a crunch) and it has a lightness, but I wouldn't call it "airy" per se.  It's the type of pizza that you realize how great it is as you're half way through your second slice.
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Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2014, 09:48:36 PM »
Correct!
First is Vito's, second is Pizza Town (NJ) and the third is Williamsburg Pizza.
All of them represent, at least visually, what I think of as a legit NY style slice. My confusion lies with what bromated flour has to do with any of this especially seeing Vito's doesn't use bromated flour.

scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2014, 09:52:22 PM »
Here are crumb shots for slices from 3 pizzerias you have endorsed as the real deal:-

...and, if you've read my reviews of the two places I've been to, you'll have noticed that while I thought they were representative of the best slices in the area, I still had/have issues.  At the time, I rated Pizza Town 8-8.5 out of 10, and, while I've never rated Williamsburg, I'd say 9's about right.  These are 8-9 pies in a sea of 3s.

If you look at all the pies, the undercrusts are typically breathtaking (relatively easy to do with the right oven), the thickness factors are spot on and the cheese is flawlessly melted. The deduction, the single aspect that brings these from 10 to 8-9, is the lack of spring.

Oven spring is the core of my being. I use oven spring friendly bromated flour and I bake in an oven spring friendly fast bake environment. Just because oven spring makes my world go round doesn't mean I can't appreciate less than perfect pizzerias that are a thousandfold better than the other pizzerias in the NY area.

It's all relative ;D
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 09:54:31 PM by scott123 »

Offline Seven

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2014, 10:14:05 PM »
Scott, any pictures of your NY pies? I consider myself a Scott123 disciple (although using aluminum instead of steel) but don't think I've ever seen one of your pizzas.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2014, 10:30:13 PM »
Sure thing, AJ! Let us know how it works out for you.

Will post pics Monday morning...

scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2014, 10:31:16 PM »
Scott, any pictures of your NY pies?

John, no, I have no photos.  I was actually given a camera last Fall by Jim (Red Kiosk), and I've been promising photos since that time, but I haven't been able to work out the logistics.  I haven't made pizza in at least five months, and, because of a family situation that I'm dealing with, it might end up being another five.

Offline JBailey

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2014, 10:46:50 PM »
John, no, I have no photos.  I was actually given a camera last Fall by Jim (Red Kiosk), and I've been promising photos since that time, but I haven't been able to work out the logistics.  I haven't made pizza in at least five months, and, because of a family situation that I'm dealing with, it might end up being another five.

Iím sorry to hear of your unfortunate family situation and logistical problems. I am thankful, at least, whatever you are dealing with has not prevented you from taking the time to post over the last 5 months.


scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2014, 11:28:35 PM »
Thanks.  Even though my post count has bottomed out a few times in the last 5 months, I'm still doing my best to not just be there for my immediate family, but to be there for my extended family (you guys) as well.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2014, 11:20:51 AM »
Ugh decisions decisions.  My place carries both Full Strength and Best Bakers.  I like the higher protein in Best Bakers but I also like Walter's pic and testimony about old school NY pizza which is what I'm looking for.  Now I have to decide which one to pick up later today.  I know Scott likes both of them.  Don't know what to do LOL.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 11:40:36 AM »
Ugh decisions decisions.  My place carries both Full Strength and Best Bakers.  I like the higher protein in Best Bakers but I also like Walter's pic and testimony about old school NY pizza which is what I'm looking for.  Now I have to decide which one to pick up later today.  I know Scott likes both of them.  Don't know what to do LOL.

AJ,

I've not tried FS but I can offer you some testimonials on Best Bakers.  Check out these pictures

NY slices http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21830.msg309487#msg309487

Sicilian http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28922.0

Boule http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26375.msg297749#msg297749
Mary Ann

scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 12:53:11 PM »
AJ, you can't lose with either flour.  Get the Best Bakers. The higher protein won't prevent you from making a Walter pie and is closer to your original intent of not reducing your protein too drastically- which I think was/is a sensible inclination.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2014, 01:12:44 PM »
Thanks Mary Ann and Scott!  Best Bakers it is  :)

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2014, 03:52:11 PM »
@Scott, I got it from a Con Agra rep that Occident is 12.4% protein, which is a little higher than the 12.2 you stated. I like and use Occident for pizza and breads, it is available to me while a lot of these other flours are not. Occident seems to be very popular in areas of NY state that have an Amish population nearby, not really sure of the connection, but I think it has something to do with the supply source.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2014, 05:03:08 PM »
Dave,

The 12.2% number comes from this ConAgra document:

http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf

The actual amount can be 0.3% higher or lower. Also, sometimes the specs for a 100 gram sample can be based on a protein value that is higher than the nominal value. General Mills frequently does this.

Peter

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2014, 11:06:22 PM »
So I picked up a bag of Best Bakers today and will make dough tomorrow for Sunday's pies.  But this brings up another question.  The only formula I've been using for NY dough is the Lehmann recipe which clearly asks for Hi Gluten flour.  Should I follow the same formula or alter it based on a lower protein flour?


scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2014, 11:50:37 PM »
AJ, what's the hydration you're currently using? As long as you're around 62-63%, you should be fine. That's where Walter and I are both at.

If you need further formula advice, I have two versions of my recipe. Here's one using steel:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

and here's one using a stone:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27591.0

I, personally, feel pretty strongly that the best classic NY style pizza bakes in 4-5 minutes.  In fact, for me, oven setup is considerably more important than flour choice when shooting for this style.  Even if you're striving for Walter's pies, that's 6-7 minutes. Are you still working with Fibrament and a 500 deg. oven? If the oven runs hot (most 500 deg. ovens can reach at least 525), you might be able to hit 9 or even 8 minutes, but if you really want to do it right, you should measure your peak temp with an IR thermometer, and based on that, either invest in aluminum plate (500 or less) or steel plate (525).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 12:30:05 PM by scott123 »

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2014, 01:38:08 AM »
Yes Scott I am using a Fibrament D stone in a 500 degree Whirlpool electric oven on the bottom rack.  I don't have an IR thermometer but you are correct in that it is taking me around 9 minutes per pie which is frustrating.  I hate watching the cheese burn only to get the crust right.  I never thought about steel.  Do professional deck ovens use a steel surface or stone?  And how would I be able to order one?  Would I be able to get 4-5 minutes in a 500 degree oven on steel?  Thanks for your help!

Offline caymus

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2014, 04:47:15 AM »
Yes Scott I am using a Fibrament D stone in a 500 degree Whirlpool electric oven on the bottom rack. 

I also have only a 500 degree Whirlpool oven.  If the controls are the electronic type you can easily adjust the temperature up by 30 degrees.  The addition of Ĺ inch steel will add another 20+ degrees due to cycling of the heating element.

Offline Seven

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2014, 09:01:07 AM »
...invest in aluminum plate (500 or less) or steel plate (525).

Scott, I've done some experimenting with aluminum, with temps ranging from 450 to 550. Check out my post in the NY section for what a 4 minute bake at 550 does.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2014, 01:08:06 PM »
So I picked up a bag of Best Bakers today and will make dough tomorrow for Sunday's pies.  But this brings up another question.  The only formula I've been using for NY dough is the Lehmann recipe which clearly asks for Hi Gluten flour.  Should I follow the same formula or alter it based on a lower protein flour?
AJ,

When I first started playing around with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation several years ago, I used the formulation that is given at the PMQ Think Tank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/, where the recommended protein content of the flour is given as "13.5 to 14% or more protein", which is in the "high-gluten flour" range. However, as scott123 has noted on several occasions, there are benefits to using a lower protein flour for the quintessential NY style. The Best Bakers flour has a protein content of 12.9%, which might normally suggest a lower hydration value, but even then it might be around 62%. So, I agree with Scott that 62-63% hydration should be fine.

Peter

scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2014, 01:46:05 PM »
Scott, I've done some experimenting with aluminum, with temps ranging from 450 to 550. Check out my post in the NY section for what a 4 minute bake at 550 does.

I know, John  ;D Because of the pioneering work that you and Marc have done, I'm now recommending aluminum plate for those with ovens that can only reach 500.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2014, 04:49:58 PM »
So regardless of temperature.....Steel or Aluminum?

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2014, 12:49:40 AM »
Ok so I postponed the bake until next Sunday because I ordered a 1/2" 20X16 Aluminum plate and I wanted to do it right.  However through reading this forum I found out that most place the plate on the top shelf near the broiler heating element.  When I used the Fibrament I placed it on the bottom rack near the baking heating element.  Was I doing it wrong or is there a different technique when using steel/aluminum vs. stone?  I want to get this right.  Thanks for your assistance!