Author Topic: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???  (Read 2856 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2014, 05:03:08 PM »
Dave,

The 12.2% number comes from this ConAgra document:

http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf

The actual amount can be 0.3% higher or lower. Also, sometimes the specs for a 100 gram sample can be based on a protein value that is higher than the nominal value. General Mills frequently does this.

Peter


Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2014, 11:06:22 PM »
So I picked up a bag of Best Bakers today and will make dough tomorrow for Sunday's pies.  But this brings up another question.  The only formula I've been using for NY dough is the Lehmann recipe which clearly asks for Hi Gluten flour.  Should I follow the same formula or alter it based on a lower protein flour?

Offline scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2014, 11:50:37 PM »
AJ, what's the hydration you're currently using? As long as you're around 62-63%, you should be fine. That's where Walter and I are both at.

If you need further formula advice, I have two versions of my recipe. Here's one using steel:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

and here's one using a stone:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27591.0

I, personally, feel pretty strongly that the best classic NY style pizza bakes in 4-5 minutes.  In fact, for me, oven setup is considerably more important than flour choice when shooting for this style.  Even if you're striving for Walter's pies, that's 6-7 minutes. Are you still working with Fibrament and a 500 deg. oven? If the oven runs hot (most 500 deg. ovens can reach at least 525), you might be able to hit 9 or even 8 minutes, but if you really want to do it right, you should measure your peak temp with an IR thermometer, and based on that, either invest in aluminum plate (500 or less) or steel plate (525).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 12:30:05 PM by scott123 »

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2014, 01:38:08 AM »
Yes Scott I am using a Fibrament D stone in a 500 degree Whirlpool electric oven on the bottom rack.  I don't have an IR thermometer but you are correct in that it is taking me around 9 minutes per pie which is frustrating.  I hate watching the cheese burn only to get the crust right.  I never thought about steel.  Do professional deck ovens use a steel surface or stone?  And how would I be able to order one?  Would I be able to get 4-5 minutes in a 500 degree oven on steel?  Thanks for your help!

Offline caymus

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2014, 04:47:15 AM »
Yes Scott I am using a Fibrament D stone in a 500 degree Whirlpool electric oven on the bottom rack. 

I also have only a 500 degree Whirlpool oven.  If the controls are the electronic type you can easily adjust the temperature up by 30 degrees.  The addition of inch steel will add another 20+ degrees due to cycling of the heating element.

Offline Seven

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2014, 09:01:07 AM »
...invest in aluminum plate (500 or less) or steel plate (525).

Scott, I've done some experimenting with aluminum, with temps ranging from 450 to 550. Check out my post in the NY section for what a 4 minute bake at 550 does.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2014, 01:08:06 PM »
So I picked up a bag of Best Bakers today and will make dough tomorrow for Sunday's pies.  But this brings up another question.  The only formula I've been using for NY dough is the Lehmann recipe which clearly asks for Hi Gluten flour.  Should I follow the same formula or alter it based on a lower protein flour?

AJ,

When I first started playing around with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation several years ago, I used the formulation that is given at the PMQ Think Tank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/, where the recommended protein content of the flour is given as "13.5 to 14% or more protein", which is in the "high-gluten flour" range. However, as scott123 has noted on several occasions, there are benefits to using a lower protein flour for the quintessential NY style. The Best Bakers flour has a protein content of 12.9%, which might normally suggest a lower hydration value, but even then it might be around 62%. So, I agree with Scott that 62-63% hydration should be fine.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2014, 01:46:05 PM »
Scott, I've done some experimenting with aluminum, with temps ranging from 450 to 550. Check out my post in the NY section for what a 4 minute bake at 550 does.

I know, John  ;D Because of the pioneering work that you and Marc have done, I'm now recommending aluminum plate for those with ovens that can only reach 500.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2014, 04:49:58 PM »
So regardless of temperature.....Steel or Aluminum?

Offline AJ72

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2014, 12:49:40 AM »
Ok so I postponed the bake until next Sunday because I ordered a 1/2" 20X16 Aluminum plate and I wanted to do it right.  However through reading this forum I found out that most place the plate on the top shelf near the broiler heating element.  When I used the Fibrament I placed it on the bottom rack near the baking heating element.  Was I doing it wrong or is there a different technique when using steel/aluminum vs. stone?  I want to get this right.  Thanks for your assistance!


Offline scott123

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 08:33:31 PM »
Wow, AJ, you're not messing around :)

It was your previous questions about steel plate that prompted me to finish writing the steel plate buying guide.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31267.0

Before I had the chance to get it up on the site, though, you jumped the gun and bought aluminum. I didn't expect you to be quite so motivated. I should have told you an answer was forthcoming, but I didn't want to commit and then not deliver the goods. Sorry.

The bad news is that most 500 deg. ovens run a bit hot, and you probably could have gotten away with steel, and steel, right now, at 525ish, might make a slightly better pie with less fussing around/formula adjustment than aluminum. Mabye. The good news is that aluminum, thanks to John (Seven) has made some tremendous strides recently.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31172.msg311305#msg311305

and, while steel presently has the longer track record, aluminum is showing tremendous potential. No matter what, aluminum is going to produce a far superior pie to the 9 minute Fibrament pies you've been doing.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2014, 05:20:43 PM »
So far I've only read the original post.

I've recently switched from All Trumps to Superlative, and I'm liking the Superlative. I like All Trumps, too, but sometimes it's just too chewy/tough. I was worried that Superlative, at 12.6% protein, wouldn't be as strong as I like, but that hasn't happened. I've decreased the oil content of my NY style dough from 2% to 0%, and it's working. Check out my Mighty Pizza Oven thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31200.0) to see some of my Superlative pizzas. I've also used it for some of the pizzas I made in fazzari's "Every trick" thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30434.msg306326#msg306326).

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2014, 11:06:37 AM »
AJ72: I grew up in the NYC pizza world.  I can assure  you Full Strength will give you a classic NYC crust.  I am talking the lat 50's through the late 70's.  Today most NYC metro area pizza is garbage.  My mother came here from Italy and  I learned about dough as a child.  My benchmark is very high and our pies meet it pretty much on a daily basis.  Our pies are baked in 1970's blodgett 1000 ovens which are still considered by many the best NY style oven ever made.  Walter
Walter, that pic of that slice in post #16 looks AMAZING.

This might be a funny question but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how'd you make it?  ;D

Offline waltertore

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2014, 11:26:53 AM »
Walter, that pic of that slice in post #16 looks AMAZING.

This might be a funny question but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how'd you make it?  ;D

thanks 9slicePie :)  I use general mills full strength flour and ice water that brings the finished temp to the low-mid 60's.  The dough is balled and put in the fridge 3-7 days.  My current dough formula is:

water 63%
IDY- .2%
salt -1.85%
evoo- 2%

We make 20oz , soon to go to 21oz, dough balls and open them to 18" pies.  They are topped with 7/11 tomatoes, some fresh garlic, fresh basil, Italian oregano, grande low moisture whole milk mozz, baked at approx 560 degrees for 8 or so minutes in a blodgett 1000 deck oven.  when they come out we grate DOP Parm Regiano and fresh basil leaves.  We offer pepperoni and homemade sausage.  The sausage will be offered at the start or this school year.  It comes from my grandfathers recipe.  He came over from Italy and was a butcher in a slaughter house in Newark NJ.  I helped him with his meats at home as a kid but forgot the details.  I  figured it out with the help of my 85 year old mother this summer.  I grew up in the NJ/NYC pizza world and try to honor that and add my little tweak. Walter

The ovens we use are the tops IMO for Ny/NJ style pizzas
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 11:28:33 AM by waltertore »

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2014, 01:25:18 AM »
^ Thanks Walter

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2014, 02:23:36 PM »
Hi guys--

I know I'm in serious pro company on this thread, so I maybe i shouldn't even butt in (whoops..too late ;)) Unless I'm missing something, all of these flours mentioned are well beyond the reach of, and unavailable to (or just plain way too much flour!) for a modest yet committed home baker (like me) . I mean, I can't even walk into RD (but you'll note that I know what RD means.. :)   So...is there a flour that one can get at the supermarket or through Amazon or otherwise online in modest qualities that could do the job along the quality lines you're mentioning here? I didn't realize the differences in flour content  were so huge! But it does explain some of my quality disappointments. Thanks!

 

Offline parallei

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2014, 03:13:04 PM »
for a modest yet committed home baker    So...is there a flour that one can get at the supermarket or through Amazon

I've had perfectly good results with both the following:

King Arthur Unbleached Bread Flour (protein about 12.7%)
Gold Medal Better for Bread Flour (12.5%, I think).  It is unbleached.

As you know, much has to do with the way one manages and handles the dough.  It is certainly not all about the flour!

« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 03:15:20 PM by parallei »

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2014, 04:52:09 PM »
Great, thanks for that..both easy to find   And thanks also,  Waltertore for your story a few entries back. Stories like that are part of what make this a great forum! And that is a gorgeous pie!

JPB

Online CIZ28

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Re: Best 13%ish flour for NY Style Crust???
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2014, 11:10:49 PM »
Even though most "pros" in usual slice joints use All-Trumps and So Strong, which are both very good flours, my vote is for Full Strength. Just scale the dough down for a little less water and oil. It should be able to take a little more heat too. I honestly prefer the taste and composition of medium protein flour. It's more traditional. KABF is a great counterpart to Full Strength.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 11:18:28 PM by CIZ28 »
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