Water temperature

[pkasten]

Who's experimented with different water temperatures in their doughs?  My first attempt using an adaptation of Buzz's recipe was great, but just didn't quite have a really crisp, or tender flaky crust.. it was sort of in the middle.

[canadianbacon]

I've learned lots since I joined this forum a long time ago ( geez, I didn't even have gray hair when I did ) 

anyway, I do believe you get better results with a room temp water for your yeasties boys.

Warm water may be nice in a pinch where you find out that family and friends are on their way over and you wish
to get your dough going, but remember..... we are not making bread here, we're making pizza ( a famous line from Peter I believe it was )

That stuck in my head..... I used to use 3 teaspoons of yeast for 1 cup of water / 3 cups of flour !

Now I use 1 teaspoon of yeast for 2 cups of water / 6 cups of flour ! ( and the pizza is super ! )

Just goes to show you how you learn lots by becoming a member here.

Anyway, also remember that if you are making a dough for the next night ( so you will be doing a 24 hour ferment )
in the fridge, then there is no need for warm water.

I wouldn't use COLD water, but just room temp water will do just fine.

Btw, I did pizza tonight, and used 1 teaspoon of yeast to 3 cups of water, and 9 cups of flour !
and guess what ! - the dough still puffed up like crazy in the oven !

If anyone wants, I can post a few pix tomorrow to show you my results.

Geez, I used to really over-do my yeast.

Anyway I guess the bottom line is don't use warm water if you don't need to Pkasten.

Mark

[Pete-zza]

pkasten,

All else being equal, higher water temperatures will lead to higher finished dough temperatures and a faster fermentation, and vice versa. So, what Mark (canadianbacon) says is correct. However, I don't know whether water temperature was the reason for the results you got in the adaptation of buzz's recipe. You didn't indicate what the adaptation was, but there could have been many other factors involved. Examples include the extent of kneading the dough, whether you oiled or greased the pan before baking, whether the pan was a light colored (e.g., bright aluminum) or dark colored, the size of the pizza and the amount of toppings, and how the pizza was baked and at what temperature and how long. If you can provide additional detail, perhaps buzz or others can address your particular results.

Peter

[pkasten]

Thanks for the interest guys.  I've been into Chicago style pizza for years, but this was my first attempt at recreating it.  I'm living in the northeast now, where the closest I can buy is that Uno's chain junk that's nothing like what I remember from my years out west. 

So here's what I did...

I made a stuffed pizza using a 9 1/2 inch black non-stick springform pan. 

Dough was 4c bread flour, 2t dry yeast, 1c water (about 2T warm to bloom the yeast a bit, the rest cool), 1T sugar, 4t kosher salt, 10T olive oil.  Sifted the dry together, added flour, worked out most of the lumps, added oil, stirred until incorporated, turned out onto board and kneaded aggressively for about three minutes.  The pan being about 3 inches deep, I wanted to get some gluten structure going to make sure the crust could hold everything in.  Let rise room temp for a few hours.  It doubled.. maybe tripled in size.. punched it down, refrigerated 18 hours.  Punched down, formed ball, rolled/stretched. 

Stretched dough over pan, pinched it down along the sides and layered in toppings (2# sliced mozz, 2oz pecorino romano, 8 oz. pepperoni, 1# crumbled hot italian sausage), pressing them in nice and tight around the edges laid the top dough layer on, letting it drape over the sides a bit.  Par-baked 10 minutes at 450 to set crust.  Trimmed back excess around top edge of pan. 

Took two 26oz. cans San Marzanos, seeded all of the tomatoes and crushed thoroughly by hand.  Added 1T minced garlic, 1t sugar, 2t kosher salt, pinch crushed red pepper.  Strained all of the juice and reduced to paste in a saute pan.  Added to crushed tomato, and put almost all of it on top of the pizza.  Sprinkled some dried oregano on top.  Baked 375 for one hour.  Took the side of the pan off for the last 20 minutes to brown faster. 

Finished product was beautiful.  Super deep... I used the whole height of the pan.. probably a little excessive, but hey.. why not.  It was perfectly formed to the pan.  When cut, nothing came spilling out.  Everything was layered evenly and neatly, no gaps between toppings and crust.  The bottom inch of the side crust did absorb a bunch of grease from the toppings and tasted great... richer and flakier than the rest of the crust, which was pretty good too.  Sauce was just the right amount and great flavor..

I guess I just want to start playing with this a bit and figure out how to tweak the dough going for different flavors and textures.  I'm also interested to see what happens if I use a bunch of vegetables.  Unlike meat, which leeks a little fat, the veg will introduce a bunch of moisture to the inside of the pie, so I'd like to see how that works out.

[Pete-zza]

pkasten,

From your elaboration of the steps you took to make your pizza, there is not much to fault. It looks like you did a masterful job. It would be nice to see some photos if you took any.

I do have a few observations that you might want to consider. First, as I understand buzz's dough recipe, it is critical that the kneading be kept to an absolute minimum if you want to achieve a flaky crust. When I have made buzz's dough, I try to keep the kneading at about one minute. I don't believe you need to develop the gluten structure in the dough so that it will contain the toppings. The crust thickness will be more important than the gluten development. If you made enough dough for the size pan you used, then you should have no problems assembling the pizza.

Second, since the cheeses and toppings come to about 3.6 pounds, and you are also using about 2 pounds of dough and maybe a couple of pounds of sauce, for a total weight of about 7-8 pounds by my calculation, it may be difficult to get a really flaky crust with that amount of "food" in a 9.5" x 3" deep pan, even with a fairly long bake time. Some professional deep-dish pizza operators try to minimize these kinds of situations by proofing the dough after it is placed in the pan, for about 45 minutes in a warm and humid environment (a proofing machine), and then pre-baking the crust to solidify it before adding the cheeses, meats, etc., and finishing baking the pizza. I don't know if this will work in your case with the additional pre-baking of the top crust, but it is something that you may want to ponder. You didn't indicate whether you oiled the pan before adding the basic crust, but that will usually help produce a crispier crust by effectively "frying" the crust. It sounds like you were very happy with using only olive oil, but a blend of olive oil and a good vegetable oil, such as a canola oil, will also produce flavorful results. From your detailed explanation I suspect you already know that.

Again, congratulations on a job well done. I suspect your next pizza will be even better.

Peter