Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team

[Y-TOWN]

Interesting night just outside of Cleveland Ohio.

The class was about 3 hours long taught by Jason Samosky, a member of the 2005 and 2006 US Pizza team.

We made dough and probably 25 pizzas for a class of 25.

 Absolutely hands on beside Jason (answering all questions) the entire night. He would answer any pizza question that was not totally proprietary to his Ohio based operation (and did answer some proprietary questions in private).

Every step in his process is made with out of the refrigerator products (dough, sauce, cheese) and straight to the oven - no component warm-up time. That is definitely how I will make pizzas from now on

We made dough by hand at the beginning of the 3 hour class and used the dough we made for the final 10 pizzas or so.

The 3 hour dough we made was as good as my 24 hour. We also received recipes for white sauce, Basil Pesto sauce, and a no cook red sauce.

Both the wife and I went. Fees were a little over $100 per couple. Best pizza time of my life to date. Awesome products made by the class.

regards,

Richard

[Artale]

All ingredients were room temp and no cold rise?

counter rise ?

[Y-TOWN]

That's correct - we watched it on the counter in front of the class - 3 hours +/- no refrig.

It was easy to deal with in the pan or screen - had a wonderfull taste

[Pete-zza]

Same-day doughs are quite common among pizza operators, but with all due respect, it is doubtful that one can achieve the same crust flavor profile as one based on a dough that has been cold fermented for 24 hours or more, and particularly beyond 24 hours.

Usually, the crust flavor in a same-day (few hours) dough comes from using large quantities of yeast (about double or triple the norm), the type of flour, and possibly above average amounts of salt and/or sugar (and possibly a flavorful oil). A three-hour dough rise is not sufficient to extract all of the natural sugars and to produce the usual array of compounds that ultimately contribute to crust flavor (and color and odor). In fact, of the three-hour period, about 15-20 minutes of it (depending on the dough and room temperature) is used up just getting the yeast to reproduce and to be fed sufficiently to produce carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol. If warm water is used to make the dough and/or the dough is exposed to a warm ambient temperature during fermentation, the enzymes will work a little faster but not fast enough to do the entire job. What bread bakers--and sometimes pizza operators--will do under the circumstances is use ingredients such as "sours" to try to replicate the dominant flavors of a finished crust. Examples include acetic acid, lactic acid, and fumaric acid, among other additives. I recently tried using acetic acid (white supermarket-grade vinegar) with Steve's quickie NY style pizza--which I think is one of the best of its kind--but couldn't detect a flavor difference in the finished crust for the quantity of vinegar I used (I replaced about 5% of the water with the vinegar). I suspect a good part of the crust flavor with Steve's recipe comes from the flour itself (high-gluten) and the yeast. It's just plain hard to do in a few hours, or with additives, that which requires Mother Nature many hours to accomplish.

The above said, I think same-day doughs do have a proper place in the home pizza maker's repertoire--specifically, for those instances where one needs or wants to produce a pizza in a matter of a few hours. Even in those instances it is possible to make up for the low crust flavor profile by using the highest quality sauces, cheeses and toppings, just as Dom Demarco does at DiFara's with a dough that has only a couple hours of age. A good combination to me would be a Stanislaus- or Escalon-based sauce, Grande mozzarella cheese and Ezzo pepperoni. Beyond that, I would go for a dough with some age under its belt.

Peter

[Y-TOWN]

"with all due respect, it is doubtful that one can achieve the same crust flavor profile as one based on a dough that has been cold fermented for 24 hours or more, and particularly beyond 24 hours"

I don't post much on this board - I appreciate your comments and will keep them in mind.

Regards,

Richard

[AKSteve]

Let's hear the sauce recipes. I'm especially interested in the no cook red sauce. My sauces are always hit & miss, so that's the one area where I could use some advice.

Steve

[bortz]

Glad you had a good time Richard.

I agree that the 3 hour rise time CAN make a good crust. If you're not a big fan of the yeasty ferment taste of 24 hrs. or longer,  aged doughs, I can tell you from experience that this is the way to go.

Let me know if any of those sauce recipes they gave you, get close to that ever elusive holy grail sauce that you have been looking for.

[Jack]

Let's hear the sauce recipes. I'm especially interested in the no cook red sauce. My sauces are always hit & miss, so that's the one area where I could use some advice.

Steve

Steve,

For a fun change of pace, skip the sauce and make a white pie. 

I use the same dough, but no tomato sauce.  I put some Italian seasonings and a tiny bit of olive oil right on the dough.  Then several types of cheese (Mozzarella, Asiago, Parmesan, Provolone, etc.) with lots of minced garlic and a bit of olive oil on top.  My only caveat is to be careful with the Olive Oil.  Some cheeses, like Provolone, generate a bit of oil on their own and too much Olive Oil can make it oily.  Small medallions of Ricotta Cheese and/or sliced roasted peppers work well here too.

One of our family favorites is a white pizza.  I usually make 4, 14 inch pies for dinner (we like cold pizza leftovers) and I always have the family clamoring for me to make at least one white pie. 

Jack

[AKSteve]

Jack,

I already make a really good "white" pizza. It's my version of a Pesto Primo pizza from Paggliacci's Pizza in Seattle. The base is olive oil & minced garlic. Then a layer of fontina & mozzarella cheeses. Then sliced peppers. Then a dollop of ricotta per slice. Finally a drizzling of pesto sauce around the edge of the pizza. The attached pic is a slightly sloppy looking version I made a little while back.

This pizza tastes great every time I make it. My tomato based pizzas are really good, too. But the degree of "goodness" varies because the sauce isn't consistent. I want to come up with a simple, easily duplicated red sauce recipe.

Steve

[DKM]

Same-day doughs are quite common among pizza operators, but with all due respect, it is doubtful that one can achieve the same crust flavor profile as one based on a dough that has been cold fermented for 24 hours or more, and particularly beyond 24 hours.

Same flavor profile? Maybe not.  An equally flavorful crust?  You bet.

DKM

[Pete-zza]

DKM,

I was careful with my wording because I know that flavor is such a subjective thing. In my case, I almost need a longer dough aging because my taste buds aren't what they used to be and I can use all the help I can get in the flavor department . This is a problem that the folks at IFF (International Flavors and Fragrances), McCormick's, and other spice producers are well aware of and working hard to address as the population ages and senses of taste deteriorate.

I might also add that there are textural differences between short and long fermented doughs. Fortunately, these are not flavor dependent and I can perceive them. For me, for optimum crust flavors, and texture, I think it is hard to beat natural preferments and long fermentation times.

Peter

[DKM]

There is no question that there are differences in taste and textures and as you point out it is up to individule tastes on the matter of which is better.  I love to make two similar pizza with small differences on how they were made (short proof vs long, this flour vs that, and so on) despite several different, small changes most people can't tell the difference-  including those who believe they can.

DKM

[Y-TOWN]

BORTZ
Let me know if any of those sauce recipes they gave you, get close to that ever elusive holy grail sauce that you have been looking for.    - Naw just some pretty standard stuff, but good - the grail is illusive


AKSteve here is the red sauce recipe

29 OZ can of Contadina Roma Style or other medium consistancy sauce
2/3 cups of water
1 tbsp - garlic powder
1 tbsp - Dried Oregano
1 tbsp - Dried sweet bazil
2 tbsp - sugar
1 1/2 TSP - salt
1/2 TSP black pepper

Mix and store in frig at least 24 hours prior to use - this mixture needs to mature (like Pete-zza's favorite dough recipe )

[Jack]

I already make a really good "white" pizza. It's my version of a Pesto Primo pizza from Paggliacci's Pizza in Seattle.

Yup, I've had theirs, in the U-district, but frequent the Gyro joint, 4-5 doors north more frequently. <blush>

Jack
Covington

[elsegundo]

What style pizza did you make - NY, thin & crispy? What were the ingredients for the dough?

I agree that a cracker style pizza can  be made in three hours using two tsp instant yeast to one pound of high gluten flour.

One secret of cracker crust is to avoid making bread which means low hydration and keeping the yeast at peak power.

What you lose in flavor you make up with texture.

So please give us a dough recipe.

thanks

[Y-TOWN]

elsegundo,

This is how we made the dough in class by hand - it really turned out well for short time dough - nice voids and wonderful taste.


1-1/2 cup warm water (110* to 115* F - if the waters to hot it will kill the yeast immediately)
2 TBSP - sugar
1-1/4 oz Active Dry Yeast Packet
1-1/2 TSP. - Salt
2 TBSP - Olive Oil
4 Cups of bread flour


Pour the warm water into a mixing bowl, Add the sugar and packet of yeast. Stir the mixture slowly until yeast and sugar are dissolved. Let sit to allow the mixture to "mature" about 10 minutes or so, The mixture will begin to react: clouding and forming a foamy froth on the surface of the mixture.

Add the salt and olive oil and stir again to combine and dissolve the ingredients. Add one cup of flour and wisk in until dissolved. Add the second cup of floor and wisk it in. Add the third cup of flour and combine. By know the dough mixture should be fairly thick. Add the last cup of floor and with your hands begin to combine and knead the dough.

Remove the dough ball to the tabletop to knead it. You may need to add a dusting of flour from time to time to reduce the stickiness of the dough. Be patient, folding the dough ball in half, then quarters over and over again for about 8 minutes. You'll know you've done well when the dough no longer sticks to your hands.

Coat the dough ball with a thin layer of olive oil and place at the bottom of a large mixing bowl which has been coated on the inside with some olive oil and cover with a stretched piece of kitchen film. Set in a warm place, like an unlit oven (ambient temperature of 75* - 80*. Allow the dough to rise undisturbed for an hour or so until the dough ball grows at least twice its original size. Punch down lightly and let sit for another hour of rising.

[elsegundo]

Thanks for the recipe.
1-1/2 cup warm water (110* to 115* F - if the waters to hot it will kill the yeast immediately)
2 TBSP - sugar
1-1/4 oz Active Dry Yeast Packet
1-1/2 TSP. - Salt
2 TBSP - Olive Oil
4 Cups of bread flour

If you are really using 2 Tablespoons of sugar rather than 2 teaspoons, same day use is almost a must as yeast will really develop and can produce an off flavor if you let it go for days with two tablespoons. That's a lot of food for the yeast.  One and a half cups water equals 12 ounces against about 18 ounces of flour is more on the New York side which favors those fans. The folding technique described should produce some great voids. A plus in my book. The hot water and ADY go together.  Looks like a keeper. Please double check the sugar.  Thanks much

[Y-TOWN]

2 TBSP - sugar (not teaspoons)

I hope anyone trying this recipe would share their results with it.

It was a great FAST recipe in class

[Pete-zza]

Two tablespoons of table sugar comes to about 0.84 oz. If one assumes that 4 cups of bread flour weighs 18-20 ounces, the percent of sugar would be 4.2-4.7%. Most people will detect sweetness in the crust when the sugar levels exceed about 4-5%. In my experience, when sugar is used in a short-term dough, such as described in this thread, the sweetness is a predominant taste. I think it is because a few hours is not enough time to make much of a dent in the use of the sugar. I found this true recently when I used just 1% sugar to try to improve Steve's quick and easy NY pizza dough (by adding more flavor to the crust and increasing the crust browning).

I wonder whether the folks who proposed the dough recipe in the class actually use the same recipe for their normal pizza operations or whether it was used mainly to teach students without having them return another day to witness a cold fermented dough. If I were asked to teach someone how to make a pizza dough in a few hours, I would have to use a very similar recipe. In the trade, such a recipe is often called an "emergency" dough recipe--to be used when the operator runs out of the regular dough (usually a long-fermented dough) or the cooler breaks down overnight, or something else happens that makes the emergency dough necessary. Since an emergency dough is not often needed, most customers won't usually detect a difference or complain even if they do. At least that is what the pizza operator hopes.

Peter

[Y-TOWN]

Pete,

This is not the dough recipe utilized by this operator -

The recipe I posted was designed for a 4 hour novice pizza class. We went up to the counter area of the classroom and made a product that we could cook and eat within the time frame of the class of about 4 hours.

His is 24+ hour and made off-site from his shops due to space constraints. He said he found a bakery that would make his recipe and deliver the product to his refrigerated space.  This kids father (also taught the pizza class) is a 30 year pastry chef and teaches at the school  http://www.icasi.net  (SUPER OPERATION).

I'm sure the father designed the recipe to fit class time and purpose.

It was a very decent 3 hour dough that tasted a little sweeter than my 24 hour+ concoction, but not so sweet that it offended the sauce and general style NY style pies we made in this class. We baked the 25 pies at 470* in a general commercial oven not designed specifically for the pizza trade.

The setting and product created is truly able to be duplicated by a home kitchen, that's what I like so much about the class.  The dough was made totally by hand (no machines), no pizza ovens - just a larger commercial stove with oven under.

I believe this recipe has a place in a home pizza makers recipe files and to me is far superior to the numerous same day recipes I have collected from the internet and tried over the years. All of the same days I've tried had a hash yeasty taste which I did not taste in this recipe. I consider this recipe a real find.

This school is less than an hour from home - this is the second pizza class I have taken there in the past year. The wife has taken numerous specialty cooking classes over the past few years there - its just a fun place with a main focus of training chefs for the real word. The mini-classes, like the pizza deal, are a tool to market the school - they are very successful with them and from the cost and head counts in the class appear very profitable.

The owner, Loretta Paganini, also runs trips to Italy which appear to be well received in this market (fairly heavy Italian population). With all the older Italian ladies passing on and typically the kids never learning to cook that style. Loretta found a void in the marketplace and filled it.  I believe Loretta has been in the states for about 20 years now and is my wife's favorite instructor.

Regards