Author Topic: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team  (Read 19323 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2006, 12:38:08 PM »
Richard,

Thank you for the elaboration on the purpose and setting of your recent instructions. What you say makes a lot of sense and clarifies things for me. 

I agree with you that there is a place in everyone's pizza portfolio for a good same-day dough. At some point, I will give the recipe a try. From the quantities you mentioned, I estimate that the dough batch weight is around 33 ounces. I don't know if you mentioned it earlier, but is that amount of dough for say, two pizzas, maybe around 14" for a typical NY style?

Peter


Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2006, 03:17:11 PM »
Peter,

That's correct - two pizza batch (14" pies)

Like I posted previously - I tried numerous short time pizza dough recipes collected from the web over the years (I've been making pizza weekly as a hobby for over 30 years now).

This recipe, for the 25 or so students in the class, appears to be a keeper for same day pizza projects. I didn't hear a complaint among the students in attendance - all appeared happy with the class and pizzas they made.

For the pizza novice without specialty equipment (mixers, pizza ovens, scales, special yeasts and flours etc.), this recipe is better than most chain delivery products I've eaten.  As you know, the quest for the perfect pizza is super subjective.  I've been searching for 30 years  :chef:

This recipe, in my view, is one the average person with a kitchen stove can make and have requests for it again from their family - to me that's what pizza is all about

Richard

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2006, 03:38:08 PM »
Richard,

Thank you. I will perhaps start with half of the recipe and, in the process, see if I can come up with a set of working baker's percents for the recipe, using a typical NY style thickness. Doing that should also tell me if the recipe is like any on the forum with which I am now familiar.

You indicated an oven temperature of 470 degrees F. Were the pizzas baked on a stone-like surface, or on a screen/disk or pan, or just on an oven rack? And do you recall roughly how long it took to bake a typical pizza? I'd like to replicate the baking protocol as much as possible to see if that protocol is a material factor in the success of the resultant pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 03:47:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2006, 04:05:25 PM »
Pizzas were placed on cookie sheets, pizza screens, and a stone placed in the oven (we tried it all)  - seems like the baking time was about 12 minutes with a fully heated oven with a screen and a bit more with the cookie sheet - I was eating what we made when they did a few on the stone so I wasn't paying attention to the time.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2006, 05:08:53 PM »
Richard,

While I was awaiting your reply, I took a stab at establishing the baker's percents for the recipe you posted. To speed up the exercise, I used my spreadsheet to enter the ingredient quantities you specified. Since the flour specified is bread flour, I elected to use 62% for the hydration, which is a very workable percent for a NY style, and especially if a high-protein bread flour, such as the King Arthur brand, is used. Entering the rest of the ingredients in the quantities you specified, I got the following set of baker's percents:

100%, Flour (bread flour, e.g., KA brand)
62%, Water
4.5%, Sugar
5.3%, Oil
1.6%, Salt
1.6%, Active dry yeast (ADY)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

My immediate reaction to the above baker's percents was that they were quite similar to a formulation I used to make a "thin" NY version of Randy's American style pizza, which I described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html. As will be noted at that post, I used a combination of table sugar and honey, which is Randy's preferred combination, but the total was similar to the sugar component in the above set of baker's percent. I also used less oil and yeast, but the amount of yeast I used (I was using IDY) was intentionally small because I was making a dough that was to be cold fermented and I wanted the dough to rise as slowly as possible. Had I used ADY instead of IDY and converted the formulation to a few hour version by increasing (tripling) the amount of ADY, the quantity of ADY would have been very close to the amount specified above. So, at this point, it appears that the above formulation would be very similar to converting the "thin" version of Randy's American style to a same-day, few hours version. Since I deem Randy's American style to be one of the best on this forum, I would be thrilled to be able to make a same-day, few hours version. This makes me even more anxious to try out the formulation you posted earlier. For comparison purposes I will also use a pizza screen, just as I have done with the various versions of Randy's American style. I will also use the dough making procedures you specified although they are somewhat different from the procedures recommended by Randy. I will make a 14-inch rather than the 16-inch described in the abovementioned post, and I will use a thickness factor of 0.105, which will yield a total dough weight of a little over 16 ounces. The high hydration level should also make it a bit easier to knead the dough by hand.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:48:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2006, 09:57:58 AM »
Peter:

Been lucky to have a brick oven, there were several pizza parties in my home.
All of those being great ones, ending with happy friends claiming for next pizza time.

I used to prepare different dough types along the ones that I like better. Normally 24 + hours of could rest.
On the day of the last two parties, because I was a little worried about the quantity of dough versus the quantity of mouths  :-\ I did new batches of the Tom Lehmann´s same day version and preferment, like you described in the specific TLNY thread, with nine hours of counter time (eight hours could be better, I think, I was overscheduled).
As normal, the dough was excellent as was the taste after topped and baked.

I could say that the dough were quite similar in the two parties, even my palate could be not trained as yours.
Eventually, in the comparison that you are mentioning above, could be interesting to try this one, or recall your memories to do that.
Because I tried and liked the TL one day version, I will love to know your opinion.

By the way, in the first mentioned party the pizzas were made with Raquel, TL and Patsy´s dough.
In the second one were limited to TL and Randy´s.
The winner, with different people tasting it in both parties, and with the same toppings was, by far, the Tom Lehmann´s with preferment and 24 hours rest dough.
The TL same day was there and the end of the two parties and was not evaluated. I liked more the 24 hours one.

Luis

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2006, 10:35:12 AM »
Luis,

When I get around to making the dough using the formulation I posted above I plan to use the same basic sauce, toppings, etc., as when I made Randy's American style so that I have a good basis for comparison. Assuming the pizza survives the ordeal, I plan to post my results.

More than once I have thought to make a few hours, same-day version of the Lehmann dough since it would be pretty straightforward to do that. However, I felt that doing that would be a disservice to the Lehmann formulation itself--almost sacrilegious. On the other hand, Tom himself says that an emergency dough should be an extension of the normal dough and not an entirely new dough. So, I suspect he would condone modifying his formulation to create an "emergency" dough.

Peter

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2006, 01:23:16 PM »
Peter:

I am so sure that the pizza will survive as we will have another great point of view coming from you.
Talking apart, I am not only an unconditional reader of your opinion, as the pizzas that I try have a little ‘soul’ of you, too. Well, may be plus a samba soul at all.
Returning to the TL same day prefermented dough, it take 8/9 hours of rest from kneading, because of the preferment use. Before baking, it felt like the normal 24 hs retarded one.
If, speaking on emergency dough, we are intended to reduce the rested time to a couple of hours, I am pretty sure that by using IDY we could be with good results.
Of course, this opinion and the comparison is only valid when using the type of flour that I reach here and the use of high temperature (800´s) brick oven.

Luis

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2006, 03:14:59 PM »
Recently, I decided to try the 3-hour dough recipe posted by Richard (Rkos) in Reply 15 of this thread. For my particular purposes, I cut the recipe in half—to make a single 14” pizza—and I used the baker’s percent version that I established and posted in Reply 24 above. In making the dough, I followed the instructions posted by Richard to the letter except that I added the flour a half-cup at a time rather than a cup at a time (since I had halved the recipe) and I found that I could knead the dough in about half the time specified by Richard (again, since I had halved the recipe). For convenience, I have set forth below the formulation I used, together with the volume measurements and other particulars:

100%, Bread flour (King Arthur brand), 9.24 oz. (261.70 g.), 2 c. + 2 T. + 1 t. (stir, scoop and level method)
62%, Water (warm), 5.72 oz. (162.25 g.), a bit less than 3/4 c.
4.6%, Sugar, 0.42 oz. (12.04 g.), 1 T.
5.3%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.49 oz. (13.87 g.), 1 T.
1.6%, Salt, 0.15 oz. (4.19 g.), 3/4 t.
1.6%, Active dry yeast (ADY), 0.15 oz. (4.19 g.), 1 1/8 t.
Actual water temperature used = 112 degrees F
Finished dough weight = 16.15 oz. (458.23 g.)
Finished dough temperature = 84.7 degrees F
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
Pizza size = 14”
Note: All measurements are U.S./metric standard

I had no problems whatsoever in making the dough. I allowed the dough to rise in successive 1-hour periods, with a punchdown in between. In each 1-hour period, the dough better than doubled in volume—almost tripling, in fact. I concluded that it would have been easy to knock about an hour off of the total rise time. However, to eke out a bit more flavor in the finished crust, I settled on the two one-hour rise periods. The finished dough was very easy to shape and stretch out to its final 14” size.

Since I had elected to make the finished pizza along the lines of Randy’s American style, I used a pizza screen (14”) and the same quality of toppings I typically use when I make my versions of Randy’s American style. As noted previously, my observation of the recipe posted by Richard is that it bears many similarities to my “thin” versions of Randy’s style pizza when the recipe is converted to a same-day, few-hours format. I used Randy’s Penzeys sauce recipe for the sauce (basically 6-in-1s with Penzeys pizza seasoning, oil and fresh garlic), Dragone whole-milk, low-moisture mozzarella cheese (a Saputo product), Johnsonville sausage (removed from the casing and pre-cooked until pink), some added red pepper flakes for more heat, hand-sliced Margherita pepperoni, and fresh pineapple. Using the screen also served to reduce the anticipated baking time so that I wouldn’t overheat my kitchen. Outside it was almost 100 degrees F. I turned on the oven, to 470 degrees F, about 10 minutes before I started to assemble the pizza.

After I had assembled the pizza, I placed it in the 470-degree preheated oven on the lowest oven rack position where it baked for about 7-8 minutes. When I saw that the crust had started to turn brown at the rim and the cheese was lightly browning and bubbling, I move the pizza off of the screen and onto the middle oven rack position, where it remained for about another 1-2 minutes. I estimate that the total elapsed time, from the time I turned on the oven to the time I removed the finished pizza from the oven and turned the oven off, was less than 25 minutes. I am certain that the pizza would have baked well on a pre-heated pizza stone but the equivalent elapsed oven time would have been over 2 hours (including the stone cool-down time).

The photos below show the finished product. The pizza turned out quite well and pretty much as I had expected from the formulation used. The crust was nicely browned top and bottom, and the crust and crumb were soft and chewy and breadlike, with decent oven spring (although the crumb at the rim was fairly tight). The crust also had a noticeable sweetness but, as I have discovered before in making my versions of Randy’s American style, all of the flavors and sensations harmonize very nicely, with the heat and spice of the sausage, pepperoni and red pepper flakes offsetting the crust sweetness and the natural sweetness of the pineapple. I concluded that the recipe I used would make a pretty good same-day, few-hours version of Randy’s American style. It won’t be as good as a cold fermented version, especially after a couple of days or so of dough fermentation, but it will do well when there is a need or desire to make a few-hours version. I also discovered that the pizza reheated very well the next day and the reheated slices were very tasty. As a result of my experience with the recipe, I plan to add it to my collection.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 05:32:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2006, 11:48:11 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for the report - glad to see someone try the recipe and consider it a workable short time recipe


Offline Wazatron

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2006, 02:26:34 PM »
I'm pretty new to pizza making, and I've also been spending most of my "pizza" time working on/researching an egg-based dough, so this sounds really intriguing to me. Perhaps it'll be a good dough for me to practice a lot of the bassics without having to invest 24+ hours each time.

I'll be out of town for a bit but when I get back I plan on trying this out. I'll post the results as soon as I'm able!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 02:29:27 PM by Wazatron »

Offline dao

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2006, 08:27:43 PM »
Thank you for the recipe Richard.  Here are my results. 

dao
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 08:35:39 PM by dao »

Offline dao

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2006, 08:43:25 PM »
One last photo of the crumb structure.

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2006, 12:56:14 AM »
Picture looks like it came out well - hope it had a taste you could live with.

I made another 2 hr. dough recipe today I received from another pizza making class -

It seems EZ'r and had a little better taste (to me anyway) than the recipe I posted on this tread.

I'll post it when I get a minute - it's late now


Offline enob

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2006, 04:46:15 PM »
I also tried your receipe following your instructions but with 2 variations:

1) I used cold water instead of warm
2) I put in the refig for 24 hours

I then took out for 2 hours before using and both myself and my family really liked it very much.
I'm going to add it to the top of my receipe collection..

Thank you for sharing 

Offline dao

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2006, 04:27:23 AM »
How did the dough rise is you used ADY and cold water?

dao

Offline dao

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2006, 04:33:12 AM »
Picture looks like it came out well - hope it had a taste you could live with.

I made another 2 hr. dough recipe today I received from another pizza making class -

It seems EZ'r and had a little better taste (to me anyway) than the recipe I posted on this tread.

I'll post it when I get a minute - it's late now



Please do Richard,

I've just finished a batch of the red sauce recipe you posted.  I used minced garlic instead of powder.  I'll let y'all know how it turns out.  I'm looking forward to more recipes. 

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2006, 09:35:25 AM »
Different 2 hour recipe - also from the cooking school (different pizza making class)

1-1/3 cup warm water (105-110* F)
1 packet instant dry yeast
2 cups of all purpose flour
1 cup Hi Gluten Floor (?)
1 tsp. olive oil
1 tsp. table sugar


To 1-1/3 cup of warm water add 1 tsp. table sugar and one packet active dry yeast, mix and keep warm. Wait 10 minutes until yeast starts to foam

In a large bowl combine flour ( I just use all bead flour, not the mixture called for above), water and yeast mixture, stir with wooden spoon until a soft dough forms. Turn dough out on a lightly floured surface. With lightly floured hands knead dough until it is smooth and elastic, about 5 minutes.

Put in lightly oiled bowl and cover with kitchen wrap. Punch down once during 2 hours.

========================
I do the water, sugar, yeast step. I then put the flour in my bread making machine (which has an option to knead without heating).

I start the machine and add the fluid mixture slowly to the flour in the machines hopper. I let the machine knead it for about 5-7 minutes and stop the process. I put the finished dough into a large oiled bowl and cover it with Saran wrap and set the bowl in my oven (NOT HEATED OR TURNED ON).

Punch it down once about an hour into the process and within 2 hours from start to finish you're ready to form the dough on a peel, pan or whatever you use.

I take the uncooked pie to my gas grill. I have an old 3" deep pie pan turned over with the stone that came from my Bella Pizza oven on top of it so the pie sits higher in the grill chamber with the lid closed (took the Bella apart before I sat it on the curb to get the stone when the oven stopped working)

I'd guess the grill is usually on high for 10-15 minutes before I put the pie in

The pie is on an aluminum pizza pan with numerous holes in it - I just set my pan on top of the stone and close the lid on the grill.

Cook time us usually 3-4 minutes, it would probably be less, but I can resist lifting the grill lid a few times during the process to make sure its not burning the pizza -- which is dumb as the grill chamber cools drastically every time I open it.

I think this recipe yields a better tasting crust than the one I posted originally wnen this discussion started, but then again pizza is really subjective  :)

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 09:37:49 AM by Rkos »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2006, 09:55:25 AM »
Richard,

Do you think it is possible that the grill imparted its own flavor to the crust, which might have been responsible for your preferring that crust over the other one that was cooked in a normal oven (albeit commercial)? I know from my own experience that I can take the same dough and bake it on a stone, screen/disk or pan, or even alone on an oven rack, and get different results from a flavor, color and texture standpoint.

Peter

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Went to a pizza class taught by a member of the US Pizza team
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2006, 10:43:40 AM »
Pete,

- good thought, I sure didn't think of it --

I'm getting ready to make a pie for lunch - I'd put this recipe in the oven to see (you are probably very right) but the ease of the grill, time factor, heat of the day and such will put off that experiment until early fall.

In any case - the no salt added dough recipe is well accepted by the family.


 

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