My first semi successful 14" NY Pizza w/Tom Lehmann's modified dough recipe.

[RetroRayGun]

  The dough came out great, but the wide thickness of the crust was due to my lack of stretching technique, I also could have used thinner mozzarella slices as the cheese didn't brown evenly with the 4-cheese blend.  The only MAJOR problem with this attempt was the sauce, I purchased a store brand because my focus was on getting better dough results, but it made the pizza suffer immensely. 

  On the plus side I did find some AWESOME PEPPERONI slices at my local deli about 3" in diameter!!!

  My next pizza will have a home made sauce instead with a little Garlic Butter and some sprinkled Parmesan on the crust for extra flavor.   

- Any suggestions for a Papa John's style sauce? (The wife needs to be satisfied  )

[Pete-zza]

RetroRayGun,

From your photos, it looks like you are off to a good start. The shaping and stretching part will only improve with experience.

In the topic heading you mentioned that you are using a "modified" Lehmann dough recipe. Can you tell me what those modifications were?

In terms of a sauce, I would recommend a simple sauce based on the Escalon 6-in-1s as a start. The Stanislaus Tomato Magic, if you can find that brand, is essentially equivalent to the 6-in-1s. Both the Escalon and Stanislaus brands are very popular among professional pizza operators for the NY style. If you look in the Ingredients boards you will find some simple sauce recipes using one of these brands. I think you will also find Papa John's style sauce recipes on the forum but I can't personally speak to the authenticity of those recipes. I know that at different times Papa John's has used both the Stanislaus and Escalon products.

Peter

[RetroRayGun]

Thanks for the response Peter,

I've read a lot of your threads and they've helped me grow in leaps and bounds so far.  You're the BEST!!

As for the recipe-

I received the hub of the mixing and autolyse technique information from here: http://www.think2020.com/jv/Dough.htm

The flour mixture is an ongoing experiment... so far it has produced nice and springy crust with a crispy texture and decent air pockets.

100% Flour (Gold Medal AP 50% Semolina 30% High Gluten 20%)  276.04 g
63% Filtered Water 173.91 g
1% Oil 2.76 g
0.25% IDY .69g
1.75% Kosher Salt 4.83g

1.) Mix flour combination together and sift into bowl.
2.) Mix water and salt together and heat to 115 degrees F
3.) Add IDY to water pour into KA mixer and then add oil

Pour 75% of flour into KA mixer and mix for 1-2 minutes at low speed with paddle attachment.

Cover bowl with plastic and wait 20 minutes.

4.) After first 20 minutes are up then start mixing on low speed with hook attachment for 5 minutes.
5.) After 5 minutes of mixing I slowly add most of the remaining flour and mix for an additional 3 minutes.
6.) Increase the mixer speed after last step for about 2 more minutes.

Cover mixing bowl with plastic and let rest for 15-20 minutes.

After dough has rested I transfer to a 3 cup plastic container, label w/time & date, then store in refrigerator for 24+ hrs before use.  When I'm ready to stretch a pie I let it thaw for 2 hrs before shaping and topping.

I found this link on a thread here at Pizzamaking.com:
 http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/cvt033.asp

I preheat the oven to 550+ degrees F for 1 1/2 hrs.  First I screen the pizza (I stretch the dough by hand but often have to fight the temptation to use a roller due to my lack of dough stretching skill), oil the crust, spread sauce, and add toppings.  I cook the pizza on the screen for about 3-4 minutes then transfer it directly to the pizza tiles for a crispy crust for another 3 minutes.  When it looks good enough to eat I take it out of the oven and VOILA!  I still have alot of tweaking to do with the sauce recipe, but the dough is pretty darn GOOD!

I just want to thank everyone here at the forum for the great information! 

I'll be posting more updates throughout my pizza making journey.

Retro

[Pete-zza]

Retro,

Thanks for the kind remarks.

Now I can see how you modified the basic Lehmann formulation. It occurs to me that using the semolina, which is high in gluten, may have made the dough more elastic than usual. I assume that the high gluten flour you used was actually high-gluten flour and not vital wheat gluten. Is that correct? If the flour blend is as you actually indicated, then you might get better extensibility by allowing the dough to cold ferment for 48 hours rather than 24 hours. That will allow the gluten network to further develop due to action of enzymes (protease) in the flour that degrade the gluten and soften it so that the dough is easier to shape and stretch.

I would also like to suggest a few possible changes based on my experience with the Lehmann doughs. First, I would add the IDY directly to the flour blend and not to the water. IDY needs no separate hydration in water and it can simply be tossed in with the flour blend and stirred in. Second, I would add the oil late in the kneading process, once the rest of the ingredients form a rough ball. Oil interferes with the hydration of the flour so it is preferable to add the oil after the hydration has been pretty much completed. Third, I would start adding the remaining flour mixture after you switch from the paddle to the dough hook. After the first 20 minute rest period, the hydration is unlikely to benefit that much from 5 additional minutes of mixing/kneading. If anything, I would rather increase the initial paddle mix by another few minutes to extend the hydration process.

My practice is to use cool water to make the dough so that the finished dough temperature is at about 75 degrees F. That way, the dough won't rise too much during the cold fermentation in the refrigerator.

I will leave to you whether you should adopt any of the above recommendations. At the end of the day, what is important is whether you are satisfied with the finished results.

Peter

[RetroRayGun]

Hi Peter,

Thanks again for your help, I will apply the techniques you wrote about in tomorrow's batch of dough. 

You questioned whether I used Vital Wheat Gluten, I did.... was I going the wrong direction with that versus high gluten flour?  If so, could you explain why it is good or bad for me so I'll know better in the next batch.

Retro

[Pete-zza]

Retro,

What aroused my suspicion about the vital wheat gluten (VWG) is that most people who have high-gluten flour available to them tend to use it exclusively for the classic NY style. It is possible to combine high-gluten flour with semolina flour, but it is not often done for the classic NY style. Also, it is common for people to confuse VWG and high-gluten flour.

If you go to the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V, you will see that VWG is an ingredient that is added to flours to increase their protein/gluten content. VWG is typically added at the rate of 1 to 2 teaspoons for each cup of flour, or 2-3% by weight of flour. To give you an idea of how to calculate how much VWG is required and how it is incorporated into the dough management process, you may want to take a look at Replies 65 and 67 at page 4 of the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.60.html.  You might also take a look at Reply 205 (in relation to Reply 204) at page 11 of the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.200.html. The latter post describes my most successful Lehmann NY style pizza to date based on using all-purpose flour.

If you used 20% VWG, that was almost seven to ten times the normal amount required for your purposes. That helps explain why the dough you produced was so elastic, especially when combined with the high-gluten semolina flour. For your purposes, you may want to use VWG at the rate of about 2-3% of the weight of the all-purpose flour. If you’d like, you can get a more exact calculation by following the instructions in the above-referenced Lehmann posts. Either way, you will save money on the VWG. FYI, the normal recommended amount of semolina is around 25% (max) of the total flour blend. So you may want to lower the percent of semolina and increase the percent of all-purpose flour. The combination of all-purpose flour, semolina flour and vital wheat gluten should give you a pretty good pizza. It will have a bit of “tooth” to it, as reflected by a chewy crust. You might also want to keep in mind that a crust with semolina in it will morph into a leather-like crust after it cools down. It usually does not reheat particularly well as a result.

Please keep us posted on your results.

Peter

[RetroRayGun]

Hi Peter,

AWESOME!!!  You've explained a whole lot of what's going on here to me.  I've also read your thread of the trip to your Daughter In-law's at Mexico and the pizzas you've made there.  I'm definately going to re-calibrate my whole operation here and attempt a better NY Style dough on the next batch. 

I'll keep you posted this week!

Thanks for your time and wisdom,
Retro