Author Topic: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?  (Read 1002 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
I just bought a book from Ed Wood, and followed his method to activate my dry culture, a specy of Italian culture but produced by a Japanese maker.

surprisingly, the culture seems activated in less than 1 hour at 32 degree C / 90 degree F while I was expecting 24 hours per Ed's book states. this leads me to think if there is any active culture in dry form, and it keeps active even stored in refridgerator for months?

you can judge from my two images how active this culture is now. the ball pan points to the initial volume, now it's more than double in size, and the second picture tells I am using a dry culture, it is supposed to be dormant per my understanding

any one can help understand the timing gap ( 1hour vs 24 hour)?

thank you


Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Hmm... I don't think it will be fully active after the first activation. Have read countless threads where there was all this action first 24 hours and then it suddenly died down.

Yours looks like the acidity needs to come down a little bit. Find your total volume, dump half and replace with equal parts flour and water till you get back to your initial volume and see where its at after 3 days.

Feed it every 8-12 hours.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21845
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
If you are interested in looking at my starter thread, you can see my starters activated in less than 24 hrs., but not in an hour.  It starts at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11578.msg106191#msg106191 You can also read what I did from that point in time until the starters were ready to be used and how other members helped me know what to do.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
Totti

Thanks for your comment, I guess the activation process should take around 24 hours as you might think of, the exceptional situation in my case
makes me wondering if the culture I am using is made in the form of instant dry yeast sort of? simply could not figure out the reason how come
its volume doubled in less than an hour  :o.

the smell seems to me very mild, I haven't use natural culture before, so, I don't know what its smell could be, I am thinking there should be
some alcohol from the gas?  :-\

Norma

thanks too for the great thread, I read through till seeing the batter floating out of the jar and people said yours activated. I am glad for you to
make multiple activation successful in the first trial, it is not easy task.

by the way which part of Asia are you living in if I may? I am living in China.



Minn

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21845
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza

by the way which part of Asia are you living in if I may? I am living in China.

Minn

Minn,

I live near Lancaster, Pennsylvania in the US.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
Minn,

I live near Lancaster, Pennsylvania in the US.

Norma


wow, I read somewhere in your thread you were based in Asia, hehe, obviously I mis-understood  :P

Minn

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
the first image is after about 19 hour in refridgerator, surprisingly I got two layers in each bottle, and the hooch is in the middle. weird me

the second image is after discarding and feeding this morning, the right bottle has more water by mistake

the third image, after one and half hour, they started buble quickly again.

the smell is much obvious than yesterday, I tasted it, very light sweetness and not very noticeable sourness

can anyone tell me my culture is alive now?


Minn

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
after two hours, it turns out like this, do you have two layers of batter? seems un-controllable beast to me

the sourness taste is pleasant to me. I will keep it in the proofing box at 90F in next 22 hours and see what it will taste like tomorrow

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21845
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Minn,

I don't understand a lot about activating starters, but what made you put the starter in the fridge so early in the activating process.  I see you posted that you are keeping the starter at 90 degrees for the next 22 hrs.  Did you read in Ed Woods book after the activation starts to keep the starter at 90 degrees F?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline parallei

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 376
  • Location: Denver
I remember reading that hooch on the top was a good sign and that hooch on the bottom/middle is a sign of contamination.  Your latest photo of the top of the starter looks a bit odd to me.  A lot of bacteria maybe.

I'd consider washing it.  Ed's book should explain washing. His instructions that come with starters do (If I remember correctly).

If not:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8362.msg72212#msg72212


Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2014, 10:13:33 AM »
Norma,

thank you so much for helping with my trouble, the reason I put it in the fridger was that I thought it was activated yesterday and I used half to make my pizza dough, and keep the rest in fridger.

obviously, I perceived my culture being activated in-accurately, the pizza crust doesn't have an obvious flavor. that's what I concluded based on my limited knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong

I decided now to follow Totti's advise, basically it is also Dr. Ed Wood's manual per my understanding. I am keeping it in the proofing box at 70F now, not sure if it is too early to adjust down the temperature from 90F? 90F serves the purpose of avoiding contamination per my understanding, if my culture doesn't have odor smell tomorrow, it should be okey in a 70F environment just in the objective of reducing acidity level per Totti's suggestion.

latest smell has tiny alcohol feeling, am I on the right track? I knew from your thread it should have sort of yoghurt taste, I perceive it should be sweet and sour, right? I didn't get there yet



Parallei

while I am responding to Norma, noticed your post in between, yeah, the hooch should be on top while mine is in the middle which is odd to me. I think you directed me to the very possible point that is a contamination, I am going to wash it now. thanks for the comment


Minn

Offline parallei

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 376
  • Location: Denver
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 10:17:44 AM »
Norma,

thank you so much for helping with my trouble, the reason I put it in the fridger was that I thought it was activated yesterday and I used half to make my pizza dough, and keep the rest in fridger.

obviously, I perceived my culture being activated in-accurately, the pizza crust doesn't have an obvious flavor. that's what I concluded based on my limited knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong

I decided now to follow Totti's advise, basically it is also Dr. Ed Wood's manual per my understanding. I am keeping it in the proofing box at 70F now, not sure if it is too early to adjust down the temperature from 90F? 90F serves the purpose of avoiding contamination per my understanding, if my culture doesn't have odor smell tomorrow, it should be okey in a 70F environment just in the objective of reducing acidity level per Totti's suggestion.

latest smell has tiny alcohol feeling, am I on the right track? I knew from your thread it should have sort of yoghurt taste, I perceive it should be sweet and sour, right? I didn't get there yet



Parallei

while I am responding to Norma, noticed your post in between, yeah, the hooch should be on top while mine is in the middle which is odd to me. I think you directed me to the very possible point that is a contamination, I am going to wash it now. thanks for the comment


Minn


One wash fixed my contaminated starter.  See here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12050.msg155565#msg155565

It'll be fine!

Offline dmcavanagh

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 11:04:32 AM »
I suspect your culture is tainted by the leuconostoc virus, that is the reason for the early activity. Do some research, I usually use Derba Wings "the pineapple solution" when I decide to start a culture, the acid prevents the growth of the virus.

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 11:15:15 AM »
Parallei

thank you so much, you helped me understand better what the instruction says  ^^^

Minn


dmcavanagh

thanks for the advice too, I read leuconostoc virus thing in Parallei's thread as well, some guest provided a solution there, I will study your "pineapple" method in my next activation to aviod the trouble, that would save a lot time I think

Minn

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21845
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 01:39:57 PM »
Minn,

I showed the photo of my starters at Reply 22 going on day three of feeding http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11578.msg106491#msg106491 and was doing the feedings at room temperature.   I didn't think I was feeding them enough.  I then asked for help and Matt gave me help at the next Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11578.msg106492#msg106492 I don't know if you kept reading but other members also helped me.   
When Mmmph kindly sent me the Cape Fear starter it activated fast at Reply 6  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28464.msg304261#msg304261 but it took a few days to be activated enough from feedings to be able to make a pizza.
 
Paul's idea of washing is spot on.
 
If you look at the thread where I made my own natural starters you also can see the help I got there.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10008.msg87117#msg87117 You can see in the second reply from Infoodel that he recommended pineapple juice or orange juice like Dave did to prevent the leuconostoc bacteria explosion.  He also said that fruit juice isn't absolutely nesccesary since the leucs will die out eventually when acidity increases. 
The smell of all my starters really did not have an alcohol smell when they were ready to be used.  The smell isn't really sweet and sour either, but all starters do have a different smell.  The smell is pleasant though.
 
Norma
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 07:39:37 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline parallei

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 376
  • Location: Denver
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2014, 01:49:32 PM »
I suspect your culture is tainted by the leuconostoc virus, that is the reason for the early activity. Do some research, I usually use Derba Wings "the pineapple solution" when I decide to start a culture, the acid prevents the growth of the virus.

Just for the record, I believe the leuconostoc is a bacterium in this case.

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2014, 06:44:56 PM »
Mimn,

I showed the photo of my starters at Reply 22 going on day three of feeding http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11578.msg106491#msg106491 and was doing the feedings at room temperature.   I didn't think I was feeding them enough.  I then asked for help and Matt gave me help at the next Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11578.msg106492#msg106492 I don't know if you kept reading but other members also helped me.   
When Mmmph kindly sent me the Cape Fear starter it activated fast at Reply 6  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28464.msg304261#msg304261 but it took a few days to be activated enough from feedings to be able to make a pizza.
 
Paul's idea of washing is spot on.
 
If you look at the thread where I made my own natural starters you also can see the help I got there.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10008.msg87117#msg87117 You can see in the second reply from Infoodel that he recommended pineapple juice or orange juice like Dave did to prevent the leuconostoc bacteria explosion.  He also said that fruit juice isn't absolutely nesccesary since the leucs will die out eventually when acidity increases. 
The smell of all my starters really did not have an alcohol smell when they were ready to be used.  The smell isn't really sweet and sour either, but all starters do have a different smell.  The smell is pleasant though.
 
Norma


Norma

Yes, I've been keeping reading, thanks as always pulling up the key posts for me, and yes I've got the hint how a fully activated culture visually looks like. and also the leuconostoc will die out once the PH changes. Appreciated much of that.

now, I have one finding through the communication, that is the water I use. I am not using a filtered water, instead tap water( not sure if I used the correct word, it's from the pipe supplied by public utility). I suspect this water may cause some problem?

Very interested in your cape fear result, mind sharing what's the difference in smell and taste?

Minn


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21845
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2014, 09:44:59 PM »
Norma

Yes, I've been keeping reading, thanks as always pulling up the key posts for me, and yes I've got the hint how a fully activated culture visually looks like. and also the leuconostoc will die out once the PH changes. Appreciated much of that.

now, I have one finding through the communication, that is the water I use. I am not using a filtered water, instead tap water( not sure if I used the correct word, it's from the pipe supplied by public utility). I suspect this water may cause some problem?

Very interested in your cape fear result, mind sharing what's the difference in smell and taste?

Minn


Minn,

I am not sure of how your municipal water will, or will not, affect your starter culture.  I think I did learn from other members that bottled or filtered water might be better.  I did feed some of my starters regular well water.  Maybe another member that is more experienced than I am will comment about the water you feed your starter.

Mmmph's Cape Fear starter culture has a unique smell.  It does smell like wine.  8) I wanted to experiment more with Mmmph's Cape Fear starter but life got into the way recently and I have no been able to experiment with it more.  This is the thread where I did experiment with Cape Fear.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30609.msg304998#msg304998   

If you want more reading material I took pH numbers of the Ischia starter on this thread.    http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28766.0  If you read all of that it should keep you busy for awhile.  :-D You can also see in that thread the smell of the Ischia starter changed.  In the end I did kill the Ischia starter and two friends sent me some new Ischia starter to activate.  I don't even know if the plastic container I used changed the starter or not.  As you can see I still have a lot to learn to be able to understand starter cultures. 

Norma
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 07:39:02 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline minn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 30
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2014, 03:41:32 AM »
Mimn,

I am not sure of how your municipal water will, or will not, affect your starter culture.  I think I did learn from other members that bottled or filtered water might be better.  I did feed some of my starters regular well water.  Maybe another member that is more experienced than I am will comment about the water you feed your starter.

Mmmph's Cape Fear starter culture has a unique smell.  It does smell like wine.  8) I wanted to experiment more with Mmmph's Cape Fear starter but life got into the way recently and I have no been able to experiment with it more.  This is the thread where I did experiment with Cape Fear.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30609.msg304998#msg304998   

If you want more reading material I took pH numbers of the Ischia starter on this thread.    http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28766.0  If you read all of that it should keep you busy for awhile.  :-D You can also see in that thread the smell of the Ischia starter changed.  In the end I did kill the Ischia starter and two friends sent me some new Ischia starter to activate.  I don't even know if the plastic container I used changed the starter or not.  As you can see I still have a lot to learn to be able to understand starter cultures. 

Norma



Thanks Norma, for your generous sharing

For the sack of reducing risk, I switched to bottled water in the latest feeding. anxiously waiting for 3 days to pass. it's an interesting adventure to me, can't wait to see if I would make it

noticed through the readings how Mmmph's Cape Fear starter culture was discovered, can understand part of the reason why this culture has wine taste is probably the culture was developed from grape? it's interesting, will keep an eye to try some grape in future, probably there be a chance to share with a culture of China origin, hehe  :-D

yeah, busy fun reading now, initially thought it's only an activation process, now I found it's way too much techniques and science behind it, it will take me a while to fully appreciate the knowledges. it's cool to monitor the ph value, I will try, at least it's worthwhile to test the culture ph value before turning into a batch of dough ... ...

have a good day, Norma

Minn



Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21845
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: my dry culture is activated in less than 1 hour, how is this likely?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2014, 07:37:42 AM »

Thanks Norma, for your generous sharing

For the sack of reducing risk, I switched to bottled water in the latest feeding. anxiously waiting for 3 days to pass. it's an interesting adventure to me, can't wait to see if I would make it

noticed through the readings how Mmmph's Cape Fear starter culture was discovered, can understand part of the reason why this culture has wine taste is probably the culture was developed from grape? it's interesting, will keep an eye to try some grape in future, probably there be a chance to share with a culture of China origin, hehe  :-D

yeah, busy fun reading now, initially thought it's only an activation process, now I found it's way too much techniques and science behind it, it will take me a while to fully appreciate the knowledges. it's cool to monitor the ph value, I will try, at least it's worthwhile to test the culture ph value before turning into a batch of dough ... ...

have a good day, Norma

Minn


Minn,

I also think playing around with starter cultures is an adventure.  Keep feeding yours and let us know what happens.  It is somewhat like having a pet, unless you are storing the culture in the fridge.  I played around with milk kefir for awhile and I like some of those results.

The detailed post where Mmmph told how he started the Moby (Cape Fear) culture is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28020.msg283287#msg283287 I thought that was very interesting how Mmmph happened upon those grapes.  Your idea is good to keep an eye out for some grapes in your area.  It would be nice of you if you shared a culture of China origin. 

What style of pizza do you want to make with your culture?  You are correct that the activation process is only the first step to be able to make different styles of pizzas or breads.  It can get highly technical in how much starter culture to use and how you might try to ferment.  If you use Bill/SFNM in an advanced search you can see all he did with his various sourdough cultures.  At Reply 29 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6957.msg71335#msg71335  Bill explains some of the variables in the process.  There are a lot of sourdough experts here on the forum.  I still have a lot to learn about using different cultures.  I could start listing some of the experts but might miss some of them.  If you want, you can search through the Starter/Sponges board.  You will learn a lot.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

pizzapan