Author Topic: Two Pies  (Read 2966 times)

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Online JD

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2014, 09:34:40 AM »
Josh, your pies look terrific.......but......I read your posts and can't quit laughing. When my wife leaves town the first thing that happens is the rum starts to flow and the next thing I know I'm making pizza!! Then the rum continues to flow and it's like "is this the second or third pizza I've made tonight?"

Oh man, us "bad boys" live life on the edge!!


 :-D Same for me but I'll probably watch a couple episodes of Mad Men instead of the Notebook, I promise.

Three day cold ferment, TF .076, KABF, 62% hydration, 3% oil, 1% sugar, 1.75% salt, .17 IDY.  Sausage.  Grilled marinated peppers.  No whiskey.

Josh, you're pies have come a long way in such short time. That one is a beauty. 
Josh


Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2014, 09:43:31 AM »
Thank you Norma and Josh!  Mad Men is good, too, but my wife is more than willing to watch Mad Men--yet for some reason she has no interest watching Big Lebowski or Groundhog Day . . . again.

I have two more dough balls from this last KABF batch that I'll bake tomorrow, then I'm going to try out the GM Full Strength flour.  I also picked up some new steel which could make for some interesting changes.  Very excited for new pizza experiments!
Josh

Online JD

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2014, 09:58:15 AM »
I also picked up some new steel which could make for some interesting changes.  Very excited for new pizza experiments!

What did you get, and what did you have?
Josh

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2014, 10:12:40 AM »
What did you get, and what did you have?

I had the 3/8" 14 x 16 ish thing sold as the Baking Steel.  I bought it before joining this site, and had ideas of making Neapolitan pies.  Months later,  trying to make NY Style pies, I wanted to get something so I could make larger pies.  So using Scott's guide, I got two 9" x 20" pieces of steel, 1/2" thick.  I'm going to finish cleaning it today, and test it out with the last of my KABF pies tomorrow.
Josh

Online JD

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2014, 10:25:55 AM »
I had the 3/8" 14 x 16 ish thing sold as the Baking Steel.  I bought it before joining this site, and had ideas of making Neapolitan pies.  Months later,  trying to make NY Style pies, I wanted to get something so I could make larger pies.  So using Scott's guide, I got two 9" x 20" pieces of steel, 1/2" thick.  I'm going to finish cleaning it today, and test it out with the last of my KABF pies tomorrow.

Very cool, that's the exact size plates I have. It's actually a bit too much for my oven but I think my oven is a bit of an anomaly. Powerful main lower level burner but pathetic broiler. Getting the proper balance is bit of a challenge for me.

What was your bake time on the 3/8"?
Josh

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2014, 10:34:44 AM »
Very cool, that's the exact size plates I have. It's actually a bit too much for my oven but I think my oven is a bit of an anomaly. Powerful main lower level burner but pathetic broiler. Getting the proper balance is bit of a challenge for me.

What was your bake time on the 3/8"?

Exactly five minutes.  I've had to completely skip the broiler because if I can't get it to kick in when I want, then there seems to be no point in using it, or the upper racks in my oven.  Instead, I put the 3/8" steel on the lowest rack, and I've been using foil as a false ceiling set about 4" over the steel.  It isn't perfect and some parts of the top of my pies cook a little more than others, but in general it seems to work.  I'm considering trying to use the old 3/8" steel as part of my false ceiling setup.
Josh

Online JD

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2014, 10:46:12 AM »
Exactly five minutes.  I've had to completely skip the broiler because if I can't get it to kick in when I want, then there seems to be no point in using it, or the upper racks in my oven.  Instead, I put the 3/8" steel on the lowest rack, and I've been using foil as a false ceiling set about 4" over the steel.  It isn't perfect and some parts of the top of my pies cook a little more than others, but in general it seems to work.  I'm considering trying to use the old 3/8" steel as part of my false ceiling setup.

5 minutes is great. I wouldn't suggest putting the 1/2" steel on the lower level, you will likely be way out of balance. If your broiler does not turn on at full temp, you can lower the temp 25 degrees or so and it should kick in on demand. With 1/2" steel, you may not need 550 degrees to get 5 minute bake times, I know I don't.

A false ceiling will never be more radiant than a broiler, so you should definitely start playing around with your broiler again.

Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2014, 11:09:49 AM »
A false ceiling will never be more radiant than a broiler, so you should definitely start playing around with your broiler again.

I agree.

Josh (quixoteQ), is your oven a newer model with a keypad?  I've seen some keypad models that go up to 550 on bake, but only 500 on broil.  If this is you, and you pre-heated the oven to a full 550, it would definitely take a while for the oven to cool and the broiler to kick in.  Still though, as JD so aptly put it, a false ceiling will never give you the top browning that a broiler will- at least not at 550 and with steel as a hearth.

I would see if the oven can be calibrated up.  If it can, there's a chance the calibration might impact the broiler as well (although it might not). If the broiler does cut out at 500 and calibration gives you 35 degrees, then that's pretty comfortable territory for steel.

If all else fails, since the advent of steel, this technique hasn't been discussed much, but you might want to think about the frozen towel trick.

Another thing that I've noticed with some of the newer model ovens is that the broiler (and the convection) seem to take some time to get up and running, so perhaps the broiler isn't cutting out because of temperature, but it's more of a warm up thing.  Maybe.  It'll be a while before I fully understand keypad ovens.

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2014, 01:53:39 PM »
Trust me, I'd love to establish a reliable broiler system.  I'm not sure my oven qualifies as newer or not. It's at least ten years old, but yes, it does have a keypad.  It's max temp is 500F but I have calibrated it +30 for the purposes of my 3/8" steel false ceiling setup.

I agree.

I would see if the oven can be calibrated up.  If it can, there's a chance the calibration might impact the broiler as well (although it might not). If the broiler does cut out at 500 and calibration gives you 35 degrees, then that's pretty comfortable territory for steel.

If all else fails, since the advent of steel, this technique hasn't been discussed much, but you might want to think about the frozen towel trick.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the calibration affecting the broiler.  If my oven max is 500, which it is, but I then calibrate it up 30 degrees, how do anticipate this will affect the broiler, and what do you suggest as far as temperature setting?

I've read about the frozen sock system, which seems to come attached with the slight drawback of starting fires.  I like fire okay, but . . .
Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2014, 02:07:56 PM »
I've seen this before. The calibration is allowing you to set the oven at 500 and reach 530 on the bake setting, but the broiler won't kick on until the oven cools to 500.

Do you have a link to someone who started a fire using the frozen towel (or sock) trick?  As far as I can recall, the worst thing I've ever seen happen is plastic molding melting- or something to that effect, and I'm not even sure that it was this particular hack, but, rather, a cleaning cycle hack.

Whether or not this was responsible for a fire, I guarantee you that it wasn't in the context of what you'd be using the frozen towel for- namely, to keep the broiler on for a minute or two at 530ish.  If a fire was started, it was someone attempting to push the pre-heat temp at least another 100 degrees, and most likely 200+ degrees higher.  From a safety perspective, pushing the oven to a much higher temp than stock is apples and oranges to making sure the broiler kicks in. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 02:11:51 PM by scott123 »


Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2014, 02:12:07 PM »
Maybe I'm thinking of a different trick.   ???  How does it work?

Josh

Offline scott123

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« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 02:41:13 PM by scott123 »

Offline quixoteQ

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Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2014, 02:43:02 PM »
Remember, you're not using this to push the oven temp any higher.  You'll want to pre-heat as you normally would, then, prior to baking the pizza, slip the frozen towel over the probe so the broiler will kick on during the bake.

It really helps if your temp probe is readily accessible, but I've seen some pretty creative approaches for placing the towel on the probe in a very hot oven- such as a broom handle.

Online Donjo911

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2014, 06:47:13 PM »
The latest are also great looking pies!  I'm not convinced that the glass of clear liquid is not vodka. Unless you tell us your day job is staff writer for Jon Stewart!  You're funny & making great pizza.  People live their whole lives and do less!!
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2014, 08:48:14 PM »
The latest are also great looking pies!  I'm not convinced that the glass of clear liquid is not vodka. Unless you tell us your day job is staff writer for Jon Stewart!  You're funny & making great pizza.  People live their whole lives and do less!!

Thanks, Don!  Much appreciated.
Josh

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2014, 10:04:27 PM »
I made a dough batch on Monday using Scott's bromated 48hr CF formula, more or less (61.5% hydration) with enough dough for four 16-17inch pies.  Each ball weighed in at 470g.  I used GM full strength for the first time, and used my hands instead of the KA for mixing/kneading.  I scaled and balled the dough immediately after mixing, put in the fridge for 24 hrs, reballed, and then put them back in the fridge.

After 24 hrs I took two out and warmed at RT for two hours, before opening, dressing, and baking on my new 1/2" steel at 530.  I really wanted to use the frozen towel trick due to my unfriendly broiler, but the stupid probe is snug against the broiler pipe itself!  Goldangit.  I'm going to spend the weekend figuring out a solution, because I feel as if my pies are suffering. 

Anyway, after another 24 hrs I did the same with the remaining two dough balls.

I'm getting better at opening the dough balls.  I'm not great at balling them in the first place. 

Not too happy with the pizzas.  The crust was fairly bland, not much crisp to it.  At least they weren't toothsome like some other attempts.  Some pics . . . I have pics of a dough ball after the first 24 hrs, before and after the reball.  There is a pic of the opened ball on my peel.  Some pie pics and a crumb shot, and a butt shot. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:20:30 PM by quixoteQ »
Josh

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2014, 10:07:18 PM »
More . . .
Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2014, 11:11:27 PM »
Josh, I can see how you might want a little more top heat, but, if you are truly 'not too happy with the pizzas,' you are a very difficult man to please, since I'm seeing a lot to be happy about.

In fact, I've been mulling over a drop in hydration for a while now, and, now that I see your crumb, I think it's sealed the deal :)  That's a sharp looking crumb.

If you like crispy, I think it's time to drop the pre-heat temp and extend the bake time a bit- which will also have the added bonus of possibly allowing the broiler to kick on. You'll lose a bit of spring, but, with a crumb like that, I think you can afford to lose a little. What's the bake time now? 4? 5 minutes?

As far as the flavor goes, NY style is generally between 1.75% and 2% salt, so if you want to bump it to 2, that will still be very authentic and should help help the taste a bit.  Another way to augment the flavor is to tack on another day of fermentation- 3 days is generally a bit more flavorful than 2.

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Two Pies
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2014, 11:27:34 PM »
Thanks, Scott.  There were several factors that changed for this bake, and it's hard to know what disappointed me.  I'm not looking for crisp, because I like a pillowy texture, but I do like a little crackle when I take a bite.  Also, I used Saputo's Mozzeria brand instead of my usual Dragone, which was quite tasteless in comparison. 

I think I really enjoy the flavor that comes with the longer fermenting time, but I've had problems with dead dough at the longer ends of my experiments.  Using Craig's yeast table seems to help, but it's still tricky.

If I wanted to do a four day ferment, would you recommend any changes beyond yeast amounts?  More kneading, a later reball, or anything like that?

Oh yeah, bake time is exactly 5 minutes.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 11:34:12 PM by quixoteQ »
Josh