Author Topic: Bulk rise vs ball rise  (Read 1016 times)

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Offline Jpdebs52

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Bulk rise vs ball rise
« on: May 17, 2014, 02:27:38 AM »
I was wondering what is the the benefit of a double rise (bulk rise then balling and letting rise again) vs after the dough is mixed just balling it and letting it rise.


Offline Totti

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2014, 03:34:21 AM »
tenderness.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2014, 08:57:50 AM »
I was wondering what is the the benefit of a double rise (bulk rise then balling and letting rise again) vs after the dough is mixed just balling it and letting it rise.

Jpdebs52,

Since you posted on the Neapolitan board, I assume that you are talking with respect to a Neapolitan style dough. If so, there are several possible explanations for letting the dough rise in bulk and then doing the division. You can see some of them at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7022.msg60428#msg60428. As noted in that post, Marco (pizzanapoletana) did not explain the rationale for using the bulk then divide approach. However, he alluded to it in Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2088.msg24291#msg24291 where he said the following:

....on what basis do you think that for a shorter fermentation there is no need for the 2 stages???? I won't tell you the reasons (which are indeed very important for the final results), but I would like to point out that even in the disciplinare document (that I do not support anyway), where the minimum fermentation is 6 hours, this is divided in 2 stages....

Presumably, there are many benefits to using the two stage approach mentioned above, whatever those benefits are specifically since Marco did not tie them specifically to the two stage approach. However, he did talk often about the better digestibility of the finished crusts made from dough that fermented for long periods and I think that may have been tied to the two stage approach. See, for example Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1942.msg17216;topicseen#msg17216 and the last paragraph of Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=656.msg11520;topicseen#msg11520.

Peter



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2014, 10:32:58 AM »
I like the way my dough handles with 24 hours in balls, but it needs 48 hours total. There is only the beginning signs of rise in my dough after 24 hours in bulk, so it's not like I'm punching it down (effectively reballing) or anything like that.

Restaurants often do it because bulk takes up a small fraction of the space that balled dough takes.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 11:53:13 AM »
I used to punch down dough when making bread. It felt like it made it stronger. I have tried with neapolitan dough in some test and it bekame strong (more spring) but also more tougher crumb to eat. When i have tried long bulk rise for nea dough. The procedure of balling would be almost same as
punching down like craig said. This also resulted in tougher crump when pizza was cold unless i was real gentle when balling.

Offline cupcake

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 10:01:33 PM »
I've also wondered this. I'm currently doing 24 hours cold bulk + 24 hours cold ball + 2-3 hours warm ball. But I really don't know the science behind it.

Craig: Sounds like you do a fermentation similar to mine. How much would you say the bulk (stage 1) grows versus the balls (stage 2)..?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 10:25:22 PM »
I've also wondered this. I'm currently doing 24 hours cold bulk + 24 hours cold ball + 2-3 hours warm ball. But I really don't know the science behind it.

Craig: Sounds like you do a fermentation similar to mine. How much would you say the bulk (stage 1) grows versus the balls (stage 2)..?

I don't do cold - generally 64ish.

Maybe 5% of the rise is in the bulk and 95% in balls (timewise, 24 hours each).
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 01:21:01 AM »
I've also thought about this and can't think of a reason why bulk vs balled rise would have much difference. Only thing I could think of is that if you had small amounts of yeast incorporated in small batches it could risk not being mixed perfectly and a ball wouldn't rise as much as some of the others.

However if bulk vs balled rise does play a difference, then the quantity of dough made would make a difference on the outcome. For instance, someone may be using 190g balls and make 3 balls in a batch. That's a bulk rise of 570g. Someone else may make single balls close to 570g, so their balled rise is the exact same as the bulk rise as someone else. So how would the dough know its a ball and not bulk? And if there is a difference, what is the minimum size needed to be considered a bulk rise?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 01:30:47 AM »
I've also thought about this and can't think of a reason why bulk vs balled rise would have much difference. Only thing I could think of is that if you had small amounts of yeast incorporated in small batches it could risk not being mixed perfectly and a ball wouldn't rise as much as some of the others.

It most certainly makes a difference in how relaxed the gluten in the balls is when you go to open them - particularly if your total rise is >24 hours.

Make 3 batches of identical dough with a 48 hour rise. Let one go 48 hours in balls. Let the next go 24+24, and let the third go 40+8. Open all three and then tell me it didn't make a meaningful difference. 
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 01:40:37 AM »
It most certainly makes a difference in how relaxed the gluten in the balls is when you go to open them - particularly if your total rise is >24 hours.

Make 3 batches of identical dough with a 48 hour rise. Let one go 48 hours in balls. Let the next go 24+24, and let the third go 40+8. Open all three and then tell me it didn't make a meaningful difference.

I wasn't as clear as I wish I was. I was more curious when both methods have a re-ball, why the first go around is often bulk (is it just for space?).

This experiment should be the same right? Make 2 identical batches, first one ball immediately, then re-ball at 24 hours and leave for 24 hours more. Second one bulk for 24 hours, then ball for 24 hours more.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 09:16:23 AM »
This experiment should be the same right? Make 2 identical batches, first one ball immediately, then re-ball at 24 hours and leave for 24 hours more. Second one bulk for 24 hours, then ball for 24 hours more.

I don't know. Maybe. In the first, your are stretching the gluten an additional time. I don't know if it matters. I've never tried it. Notwithstanding, the whole idea of reballing is incomprehensible to me.

Reducing the space requirement is certainly a benefit of bulk. I just don't think it's the only benefit. It's one more tool you have to work with to achieve the desired result. Great pizza happens at the margins.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 12:31:39 PM »
I always Bulk at room 6-10hours  depening on the variables (day job schedule ) , yeast%,  room  temp , humidity, phase of the Moon  ??? jut kidding , but at 60-70 degrees then I gently Ball 1X ( not Reball) and then into fridge for 1-3 days
John
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Offline Totti

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 06:40:19 PM »
Can now officially verify this.

Instead of usual 24+24, I wanted to experiment and did 40+8. Balls noticeably more stiff, came back on themselves during stretching. Results speak for themselves, I wouldn't do any less than 24 hours ball now. Luckily I forwent the SF Oven in exchange for our normal oven last night (Too cold +wet).

Offline fagilia

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2014, 02:05:32 AM »
I think total time of rising comes into play alot. Your test totti would equal of 20h bulk and 4h balls which is to little for me. 6-7 hours is totally doable if making a real gentle balling not streatch dough too much. For you equals 34 bulk 14 ball. Have not tried but that is my theory.
offcourse a 24 ball will be easier to open but i mean doable with good results.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 03:15:57 AM by fagilia »

Offline sub

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 04:57:35 AM »
There is a lot of parameters to play with,

I've done 24+24h  H62%but

With a higher hydration (18+6 H67%) you can open a  ball as easily  with less hours, and the dough mature faster.

Offline weemis

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Re: Bulk rise vs ball rise
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2014, 06:03:51 AM »
In my experience, it is usually a more difficult process to ball a batch of dough immediately if it's been mixed by hand. Whether or not you're planning on the majority of the dough development being in balls or bulk, I find it best to give it some time to relax before attempting to ball it. Giving it at least a couple hours makes for less tearing, and a generally more supple and forgiving dough.

My mobile WFO business revolves around the temperatures of the day, and the height of summer can make it very difficult to keep dough from over-fermentation. One way I've found to combat this is to ball the dough around 5 or so hours before serve time. This is all based around an 18-24 hr room temp ferment at around 65-70 degrees (basement temp) for the duration of bulk fermentation. The process is in no way an exact science, but seems to help keep the dough from getting too far out of control on the really hot days.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 06:05:39 AM by weemis »
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