Author Topic: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment  (Read 477 times)

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Offline Donjo911

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I had been using what I thought was a local starter last year.  It was very active in spring and summer but was weak both in growth rate and C02 production/Lift in Fall & Winter.  However, I've had this "thing" that I have believed is just a natural preferment of only flour and water not weighed.  I use it when I make dough but also add a very little ADY because I do not usually expect rise from it alone.  Adding a little ADY with this and a cold fridge ferment gives me the taste I look for - at least so far.  I keep the "thing" on the counter and feed it regularly, discard & use for pizza dough at least once a week on a schedule.  Then just I as had happened last spring the days got warmer and this "thing" seems to be acting like a sourdough starter. 

Pete-zza answered me with this before here:
Donjo911,

Technically, a poolish uses equal weights of flour and water and commercial yeast. However, you can also use equal weights of flour and water with wild yeast and end up with a starter that has the same consistency (same hydration value) as a poolish made with commercial yeast. Some people refer to the natural yeast version as a natural preferment or a natural poolish to distinguish that version from a poolish made with commercial yeast. However, the fact that the hydration values of a natural poolish and a commercial one are the same does not mean that they are interchangeable in recipes or used in the same way in recipes. Moreover, sourdough starters often do not use equal weights of flour and water and, as such, are not a poolish by any definition.

Peter

I planned to (and will) make dough today for use Monday & early next week. I discarded and fed the "thing" at 7:30AM this morning.  When I went down to the kitchen at 10:30AM - the string I used as a marker is at the initial level after feeding.  It usually will show some activity in fall/winter and grow by about 1 inch in this jar (1/2 gallon wide mouth Ball jar.) This is at least inconsistant behavior for the "thing" that I've been calling a natural preferment. 

My plan is to make 2 almost identical* doughs today.  Both with the same weights/bakers %'s, except I will a small amount of ADY*  ( I do have a package of SAF Instant too - but I have not opened yet. If there is a reason to use IDY in favor of ADY for a more "controlled" please let me know. ) I'll bake each of the doughs on steel, at 600, for the same time and record/capture the results.  If it the batch with no commercial yeast produces the desired & expected rise is it just a natural occurring yeast? If it's also pleasantly sour in taste and desirable in texture is it a sourdough starter? 

Last night I happened to reread much of the Starters/Sponges/etc. including Mmmph's Cape Fear genesis and the classic TXCraig1 & Asporica (sp) exchange on the absolutes of microflora - and Jackie Tran's "if it floats - its ready" [this forum is just awesome - I love it] I've really tried to understand /find/ not duplicate a topic that has been well covered regarding SD starters and when a natural preferment becomes, or if it can become, a sourdough starter.  Is it possible that its just wide temperature fluctuations in room temp drive the activity throughout the year?  I could just start over with Camaldoli, SF, and Ischia I recently received from Sourdo.com and will once I get the proofing box competed.  Unless it's all just a matter of temperature. (I've ordered a PID and am working on the proofing box to regulate temperatures going forward - but I'm slow on that road - sorry Anverc !) 

 I still wonder....

It doesent really matter - the results will be the results.  But if it acts like a duck & quacks like a duck  - is it in fact, a duck? Or, just a game hen in a duck suit?

I'll post the pics with weights. %. workflow and the pies once baked.  Again, I'll be watching this to see if anyone has recommendations prior to making the doughs later today/tonight. Thanks all, - Don
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 03:30:39 PM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
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Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 09:05:16 PM »
5: PM PST and no takers.  OK.  Movin' on...

Dough A "Thang"

          Flour
500g  Caputo Metro A flour
400g  Stone Buhr Unbleached AP
900g  100%
          65.5% "Nestle Corporate Water" - Arrowhead Spring Water
              2%   Morton's Kosher Salt
             15%  Thang Thinks it's a SD preferment

All Flour into KA Artisan Bowl w/ C hook.
"Thang" mixed into 100% of water at room temp - 100% of water + "Thang" into KA Mixer Bowl
First mix on speed 2 - 2 minutes
5 minute rest (lift planetary head and take picture/video)
Added salt while mixing on speed 1 for 3 minutes
Bulk to container @ room temperature.

72.6* IR Temp when moved into bulk.
71.0*   IR Home temp @ time of measurement.

Dough B "1.5% ADY"

                    Flour
500g  Caputo Metro A flour
400g  Stone Buhr Unbleached AP
900g  100%
          65.5% "Nestle Corporate Water" - Arrowhead Spring Water
              2%  Morton's Kosher Salt
            1.5%  ADY (bulk Costco SAF brand kept in a bail jar)

All Flour into KA Artisan Bowl w/ C hook.
ADY dissolved into 100% of water @ 100* in separate bowl for 10 minutes (hand mixed)
First mix on speed 2 - 2 minutes
5 minute rest  (lift planetary head and take picture/video)
Added salt while mixing on speed 1 for 3 minutes
Bulk to container @ room temperature.

74.8* IR Temp when moved into bulk.
72.0*   IR Home temp @ time of measurement.


Recommendation on time in bulk before going into the fridge? Or, maybe not going into the fridge?
* I need to check TXCraig1's preferment matrix.  I'll do that and make a determination if there have been no replies.

Bulk @ room until then...

Cheers,
Don

* I took 6 second videos of the dough coming off the hook too.  Need to learn how to post them or add to YouTube and post URL.  That later.
Now - off to make Chicken Curry  :-D
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 10:05:08 PM »
it's still in the counter in bulk.  Room temp 78*

Any recommendations?  At 7:30 PST it gets stretch & fold (x3 times at 15 minute intervals) and then into the fridge.  We may have friends over tomorrow or Monday so... the results are forthcoming nonetheless. 

Have a good weekend!

Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 01:16:05 AM »
10:10 PM PST.  third stretch and fold at room temp.  both have same feel (almost) the ADY is a little more gassy - but in t bigger air bubble way.  The "thang" seems equally light and airy  - but not as "pronounced?"  Into the fridge they go.... More on Monday.

Goodnight Moon,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 06:46:04 PM »
6:30 AM - I checked the bulk doughs in the refridgerator to see what the overnight changes were.  Both doughs had visible changes. They smoothed out on top. There was obvious dough development visible from the bubble formations in each dough. The ADY dough had a guesstimated 10% greater rise of volume in it's container. The smell of the ADY was nothing special - but without a preferment that's what I expected.  The "thang" had the smell that my dough usually has only a bit "milkier" or creamier.  Without question - a clear difference in aroma. 

9:30 AM - I removed the two doughs from the fridge.  Prepared and labeled the individual containers.  Split the doughs into three balls each.  I did not weigh them - at this point I never do - just eyeball them.  What I did notice while balling was that the ADY had more gas trapped than the "thang" however, the 'thang' was no slouch, for sure.  I am happy to learn that the 'thang' seems to be acting like a yeast, it smells like will be the right flavor (if one can tell at this point) and I'm hopeful that texture will be good. We'll see.

One of two things is going to happen:  Pizza tonight or Pizza Monday night.  If some friends come over tonight - at least a few will be made tonight.  If not, at least two of them will be baked on Monday with the remaining doughs made into pizzas thereafter.  More as that develops.

Here are the pics of the dough balls in their individual containers.
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 06:47:11 PM »
oops - pics:
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 12:53:39 PM »
After looking at the Sourdough Fermentation Prediction Table by TXCraig1... I realize I need to mod my experiment.  I wanted "all things being equal" between the baked pizza dough.  However, it appears that at my temperature - it would need 99 hours to ferment the "thang."  So, I have removed one of the containers to the counter which is presently at 70* and will be closer to 80* by 5-6PM.   I will also be moving one of each (ADY & Thang) at 90 minutes prior to bake time to see what the differences are in oven spring, etc. between the two given the same process/temps. 


"When I see three objectives, three doughs, three pies. I do not see coincidence, I see providence. I see pizza."
The Gluten Matrix - Re-baked

More later,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 11:13:58 PM »
Perhaps I posted with the incorrect title?  or the last post. the whole where I see three... yadda yadda yadda...  Well, the test will prove it's worth.  Tonight I will share only the product of the test. Not the step-by-step.  Which will come tomorrow - with some interesting conclusions, nay - dramatic conclusions.  8)

Cheers Pizza Friends,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 11:16:38 PM »
Oh, one last tease.. the crumb:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 11:38:14 PM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2014, 11:36:44 PM »
At some point it's just a cry for help  (kidding)  Here's one more. 
PS - I gave an entire "mix-tape" of the three pizza's to our new neighbors tonight.  Talk about friends with benefits... pizza!

Boom:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 11:39:13 PM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.


Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2014, 11:37:34 PM »
I meant this one:
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Tampa

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 11:06:03 AM »
The pies look good.  Did one quack better than the other? ;D
Dave

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 12:48:51 PM »
Thanks Tampa!  Yes!!

I'll start with the end in mind.  The homegrown preferment has yeast like properties. It produces sufficient lift and tastes great. So - to me it is - a duck.

You should be able to see in the picture below the consistency in rise between the of the three doughs just prior to bake time.  I learned something about in the comparison that I think reasserts that TXCraig1's fermentation prediction table is accurate.  The "thang" dough removed from the refrigerator at 11AM had 41 hours in cold ferment plus 7 hours at room temp. 

The ADY dough which had 46 hours in cold ferment and only 3 on the counter.  Between these two doughs the results were similar in terms of their extensibility, strength in that they did not tear at all while opening & stretching.  Between 'thang 1" and ADY was that the ADY was a little more elastic than the 'thang" that had 41 + 7 hours.  When you look at the picture below of the three doughs in their containers you may be able to tell that the 11AM Thang and the ADY have very close to the same level of rise in the container with some blister development.  The Thang 2 3PM dough did not have sufficient time to develop and rise so it achieved less rise by 5PM.

The third pizza used 'thang' dough and was kept in the fridge the same about of time as the ADY. As well as being brought to the counter prior to opening & dressing.  What I noticed between "thang 1" dough and "thang 2" dough was that they opened much easier as compared to the ADY dough.  I've made other dough with 100% Caputo Pizza Metro A dough and ADY and it has a tendency to be very easy to open - too much for my taste. This combination  of the two doughs produced similar texture to other similarly formulated doughs with ADY and 48-72 hour cold ferments.  However, the dough using the homegrown preferment, which I'm going to rename "Duck Sourdough" has a really nice flavor which the ADY never really achieves in my bakes.

From the standpoint of how they acted in the oven - all doughs baked a little differently. Pizza 1 with 11AM Thang dough was the thinnest and baked very quickly for my setup at just over 5 minutes.  I charred it by giving it just 30 seconds more under the broiler than was needed.   Pizza 2 with ADY and better oven spring than either of the other two pizzas.  I'm going to make pizza again tomorrow with the same doughs left over from the dough prep and will see if this is consistant.  I think it will be interesting to see if the results are the same as the preferment prediction tool provides for at peak development at 135 hours at my fridge temp of 45*.  I have confidence that it will.

All pizzas were launched at 615*.  After removal of the pizza the steel registered 485 at it's lowest and as high as 615*. I do not know what to attribute the differences to. All three were by design, as close to the same size, ingredient weight, and close in approximate dough ball weight. In hindsight I should have weighed each dough ball before placing into individual containers. I will going forward.

I think what I learned:
  -  "Duck Sourdough" certainly works as a replacement for commercial yeast. 
  -  "Duck Sourdough" is predictable given appropriate conducive temperatures.
  -    I do need to build my proofing box asap to insure consistant results.
  -   the preferment prediction model works not only for Ischia but for other (at least one for certain) sourdough starters.
  -   posting of this topic and others this weekend connected me with Jsaras who provided me with an insanely awesome sauce recipe which will now replace my own.  (see topic: Re: Trader Joe's Unsalted Crushed Plum Tomatoes)
  -   7 oz. of cheese used on 18" pies is about right.
  -   To measure end results - I really should have weighed the dough when it was balled as I weighed everything else - to better compare end results + bake times & temps.
  -   Even with steel and a long preheat.  letting the steel fully recover is important to get consistent top/bottom bakes.
  -  I still have much to learn!

Pics in order of capture:
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:44:59 PM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2014, 12:52:07 PM »
More pics in order:
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 12:56:24 PM »
Last of pics in order:
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Tampa

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 05:55:45 PM »
Great experiment and thanks for sharing the results.  I don't have a lot to your observations.

I was late to the party on Craig's prediction method, but my results are similar to yours - great dough.  I didn't make a proofing box, I just use an old Styrofoam cooler and a couple of empty OJ containers like he shows in the picture.  The result is almost always 1 day at 65F per Qt so I switch one out for the other after 24 hours or so.

Dave

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 08:16:31 PM »
Thanks Dave! I appreciate it.  It's funny. I have spent a fair amount of time reading the forum.  I frequently read something from 2006 or 2005 when lets say, core PMF team were communicating after I've just had a lightbulb moment. At those moments I realize that it's 'all' been done before  :-D.  I'd love to read the entire site as a chronology. There are so many talented bakers/chefs (not to mention the lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc.) offering great insight or referral - the lessons are all here.  It's one reason I don't let too many days go by without catching  up.  Thanks again!  - Don
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:21:59 PM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline JD

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 08:31:56 AM »
Hey Don. First off, I like the looks of your pizza. Although you didn't get any responses, you actually answered all your own questions correctly! This is most true for your post when you realized the "thang" shouldn't go in the fridge and will not behave the same as your ADY dough.

While a proofing box will likely give you the best results possible, it is not absolutely necessary to make decent sourdough pizza. Notice the prediction model temperatures have values all the way to the 70's & 80's? Don't be afraid to experiment at your room temperature, even if it's a bit warmer than ideal. At the very least you'll learn more about how your homegrown starter compares to a more "traditional" starter. Once you get used to sourdoughs, you can get the proofing box in order and really perfect your doughs.

A lot of members may not necessarily be interested in following experiments, but instead are looking for pictures of end results. If you summarize your experiments into a few sentences instead of paragraphs, you'll probably get more feedback. Either way I think you're rowing your own boat in the right direction, and making some decent looking pizza.




 

 
Josh

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2014, 01:08:58 AM »
A follow up, as I promised would share the results of dough at 130+ hours:

Dough remaining:  2 x ADY and 1 x "Duck" Sourdough...

All taken out of the fridge at 5PM for an 8:PM bake.   They were purposefully left near the preheating oven to come to temp more quickly.

Begin with the end in mind:  Both the ADY's were similar in that they were not overblown, did not get hole-y, and perhaps due to their hydration, remained a little milky, if that is a term, in the creation of the corniceone.   I did use the 'slap" technique that I read about today which seemed to help with both the thinness of the pie as well as the texture of the underskirt/crust during bake.

The "Duck" sourdough performed better in terms of thinness of crust and oven spring.  More than that, it had a far better taste and beyond that better texture.  I was somewhat indifferent to it but my wife, not knowing which was ADY and which was "Duck"  preferred it.  The fact that it was not a veggie pie withstanding.   

I read much today from the early Pete-zza strings around Brian Spangler's recipe and the need for temperature to sustain both the Levin, a starter, or a poolish.  These "old scrolls" are proof (no pun intended) that we stand on the shoulders of giants.  To that end, reading the archives of 2009 and prior is not unlike a undergraduate degree in all things pizza dough.  ;) :-[ :o

Oven temp:  625* at launch - drops to 5:15 at end of bake.  Full recover before new launch. 

Tonight: Heavy pies:  1.5 oz sauce, 8 oz. cheese, wait for it: 12 oz. toppings  (mush, spinach, pep, ital sausage, onion) 

The ADY dough seemed better in the containers and worked well on the bench.  However, comparatively, the homegrown starter - fully active, preformed better and had a better taste.

PS - my neighbor returned the pizza tray given to them loaded night-before-last and said, "this is the best pizza we've had since we moved here 7 years ago."  That may have been an embellishment - but I'll take it?

Pics of 2 ADY and 1 homegrown pie:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 01:13:25 AM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Homegrown Spring temps drive duck-like behavior in preferment
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2014, 01:12:16 AM »
more pics of the rim and by comparison:
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.