Author Topic: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough  (Read 1288 times)

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Online fagilia

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2014, 01:51:41 PM »
I Think i have understod some of the things that came up in this post.
I have managed to make a non sour sourdough. Maby too mild for my taste but anyways.
I changed up my feedings according to fornografer and Adrian to be able to change the balance to favor more yeast. It showed that this did work since my dough was raising a lot faster now compared to Before.
In the different tests i made i used the chart that Craig posted that shows growth rates Lactic/yeast in different temperatures. Cant find it just now when i need it  ;D. This i used more for dough rise.
I did not care about a wet or a stiff starter since from what i have read you can change the flavor better with other methods.
I also found some old posts made by Marco that supports all this too, to some extent.
Unfortunately i cant explaine exactly what i did in precise Words since my knowledge is too low and i would probably make to many mistakes Writing and maby mislead people.
Heads up for anyone too take my Writing as a fact for this reason too.

So far so good.
There were though extreme differences in taste and dough strenght between the different starters that i use. Some dough balls expand in a more x axis and some more in an y axis even though Everything was made the same. But none was sour. This would support Bills advice to make tests
One very interesting finding i made was a Franco Manca sourdough i used came out to be very very similar to the ones i have had at their Place. Almost scary.
Hopefully ill get the same results when doing these tests many times.
I Think i will buy a ph meter too for starter and for cheese making.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:15:34 PM by fagilia »


Offline Totti

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2014, 06:38:31 PM »
I wouldn't get too caught up in it all guys. After all, as Craig says if you are only using 3-5% in your finished products, it's going to have less and less relevance what the breakdown is in your starter, compared to how active it is.

Not sure if it has any relevance, but one of my arm hairs made its way into a dough ball last weekend and it was the pizza of the night.  :-D

Offline Adrian

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2014, 08:27:05 AM »
I wouldn't get too caught up in it all guys. After all, as Craig says if you are only using 3-5% in your finished products, it's going to have less and less relevance what the breakdown is in your starter, compared to how active it is.

Not sure if it has any relevance, but one of my arm hairs made its way into a dough ball last weekend and it was the pizza of the night.  :-D

The flavour components already present in the starter do have next to nothing influence on the flavour of the final dough. That's right. So don't worry if the starter has become too sour.
But the proportion of different microorganisms (and of course how active they are in relation to each other) has a tremendous influence on the outcome.
Especially as I believe, that the best flavour with a "just one temperature" method can be archieved at medium temperatures where all mos are active.

Adrian

Online fagilia

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2014, 04:43:38 PM »
ok thank you Adrian and totti,
I have some more questions but i need to do some Reading first.

Online fagilia

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2014, 02:56:48 AM »
Here is the chart i was talking about Before: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13613.msg143261.html#msg143261

I have been doing a 60% hydration starter kept in lower temp versus a 125% starter kept in higher temps. Yes it made  difference for me at least.
The lower hydration and lower temps favours more yeast activity but also favours acetic acid over LAB from what i have read. I also kept feeding my starter at the same ratio for a week to reduce the lag times. But in any case as I lowered the over all bacteria over time it became less sour. Maby it was just my thoughts and not a fact. Maby I just wanted to suport my own hypothesis. I will make more tries.

But here is the question I have thave not found a real yes or no theoretical answere for (i know the answere has probably been written in other Words, even in this thread):
I believe it has not been written about so much since normal bread makers uses more % starter than us as Craig pointed out.

If you was conduting two test. One with a starter that had higher acid levels (eg. 60%yeast/40%Acid) and one with higher yeast levels (eg. 80%yeast/20%acid) compared to the other.
What would happen in theory to let say craigs recipe with the 2 tests everything else being equal?

My thoughs are that even if we use small amounts of starter it will reproduce itself in a ratio that is pretty similar to the starter itself. So the higher acid levels in the starter will show also in the final dough and vice versa.


Another question. Is it possible to measure yeast levels by using a PH meter. I know other people here uses it. I mean that if the starter has lower Ph value it contains more acid and if higher Ph value  it has more yeast. I suspect its more complicated than this though?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2014, 11:32:41 AM »
Did you have a chance to read the article that goes with the chart you linked to? It's worth a read: http://aem.asm.org/content/64/7/2616.full.pdf

When you write 60%yeast/40%Acid, I'm guessing you mean 40% Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB), right? LAB will always outnumber the yeast - by as much as 2 orders of magnitude (100:1). The likely range of microbial makeup is  probably 99% yeast/1% LAB -- 90% yeast/10% LAB. Cultures closer to 99% yeast/1% LAB are more common from what I've read. This is of course keeping in mind that the starter or dough is mostly flour and water and that the yeast and LAB combined are but a small fraction of the whole. I'm sure that you can effect the yeast/LAB makeup by manipulating the environment and food supply, however, the specific microorganisms present will also be a determining factor.

In the 2 culture test you propose, I'm not sure your hypothesis is correct. If you have manipulated the starter to favor the LAB over the yeast, once you introduce it to the dough, the microorganisms will do what they naturally want to do unless you also manipulate the dough to continue to favor one or the other - in which case, everything else is not equal as you propose in the test as you will have to manipulate each dough differently.

If you want a more or less sour dough, I think you have several general choices (or a combination of them):

1) Get a starter that in and of itself produces a more or less sour crust. Not all cultures behave the same.
2) Use more starter that is already has a large acid buildup. This method, for example: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.0 Jus be careful - you can easily liquefy your dough with too much of a very acidic, enzymatic culture. This would be closest to what you suggest above, but it's a matter of pre-creating the acid - not necessarily manipulating the makeup of the culture. When you do this, you are also adding a lot of yeast, so further fermentation can be rapid.
3) Manipulate the environment to favor the LAB. You can exploit the gap between the yeast and LAB growth rates you see in the chart you linked to as I wrote about here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14627.msg145628#msg145628 I've read that this favors the development of lactic acid over acetic acid. My results seem to support this - it is more creamy, mild sour as opposed to a sharp vinegar sourness.
4) Manipulate the environment to favor growth - microbes first want to survive. The more energy they spend on survival, the less they spend on growth. More water, less salt, ideal temperature etc. make it easier to survive, and they can thus use more energy to grow. The acids produced are a byproduct of growth.
5) Extend the fermentation time to build up more acid in the dough. This generally involves lower temps which should favor acetic acid buildup over lactic. With my culture, it takes something over 48 hours for the dough to become perceptibly sour. At 72 hours, the baked crust has a very distinct sour note. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg170880#msg170880

With respect to using a pH meter. It won't tell you anything about the yeast or LAB - just the pH (lower is more acidic). A lower pH would indicate more acid build up, but this does not necessarily correlate to the yeast/lab ratio. There are many other factors that could be significant.

Pizza is not bread.

Online fagilia

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Re: Controlling sourness of neopolitan starter dough
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2014, 03:26:34 PM »
Ok, thank you for taking the time with such in depth answere. I will have to digest this information but now its time for some samba FUTEBOL.
Also yes i ment LAB. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 03:38:22 PM by fagilia »


 

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