Author Topic: baking pizza and breads  (Read 493 times)

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Offline Chet

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baking pizza and breads
« on: June 04, 2014, 01:05:53 PM »
Most of my bread baking recipes call for unbleached 12.7 % protein flours, been looking at General Mills GM Unbleached Flour Full Strength 50lb, 140027, any other alternatives out there, what is the main difference between bleached and unbleached

  Chet



Offline scott123

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 01:11:46 PM »
Chet, I would hope, with all the pizzas you've made, you understand the benefits of bromate. I bring this up because, while there's a small chance you might be able to find unbleached unbromated full strength, you won't find unbleached bromated.  If you want bromate, which, for pizza, you do, you generally have to take bleached.

As far as the difference is concerned, I find bleached cake flour very chemical-y smelling and tasting, but bleached bread flour is mostly just lighter in color.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 01:13:51 PM by scott123 »

Offline Chet

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 05:58:43 PM »

 Hi Scott

   I know! i have made alot of pizza to date, but recently been making some breads and focaccia's. most of the recipes are calling for unbleached, AND you are right, of the 3 big pizza suppliers in the area no one carry's unbleached flours, the only unbleached 12.7% flour i can get is King Arthur bread flour in the blue bag, it works well, but dont want to be buying 5lbs of flour for around 5 bucks, going to try my all time favorite GM Full Strength and compare the results...


  Chet

Offline scott123

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2014, 07:48:16 AM »
Chet, bromate provides the same volume enhancing properties in bread as it does pizza.  My infatuation with Spring King began with a purchase of a small bag of flour from my local old school Italian bakery- who happens to make the best bread I've ever eaten with Spring King.

Full Strength will not let you down for bread, trust me.

Offline Chet

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2014, 08:04:13 AM »
Chet, bromate provides the same volume enhancing properties in bread as it does pizza.  My infatuation with Spring King began with a purchase of a small bag of flour from my local old school Italian bakery- who happens to make the best bread I've ever eaten with Spring King.

Full Strength will not let you down for bread, trust me.

  aww yes!!! Spring King... will have to see if i can find it,, did not have any luck a few yrs back, who was spring king made by, refresh my memory

Offline Chet

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2014, 08:14:03 AM »


  Scott

 Forgot to mention, last week i saw Bouncer and Balancer flour, any thoughts on them


   Chet

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2014, 08:30:42 AM »
The only difference between bleached and unbleached (bread) flours is in the color of the flour and the fact that the bleached version will typically provide a slightly brighter crumb color in the baked product. The only thing the mill is doing is bleaching out the beta carrotinoid pigments (yellow color) from the flour. There is no impact on the taste or aroma of the flour or finished product. Cake flour, on the other hand is a whole different animal, in this case the bleaching is done for a totally different reason, in addition to making the cake flour whiter in color, the bleaching process weakens the flour protein and most importantly it modifies the flour starch which allows bakers to make what we refer to as high ratio cakes. These are caked made from formulations that have more sugar than flour as opposed to low ratio cakes which are typically made at home where the sugar is equal to or less than the flour weight. Now you know why those cakes you buy at the supermarket are so sweet tasting. This is why cake flour does have a different appearance and aroma, and it makes for a really poor quality bread or pizza flour, even when blended it isn't very good. I believe in a previous post I might have given a listing of flours from different manufacturers which fall in the 12% protein content range. If I'm wrong let me know and I'll post the list for you.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online Pete-zza

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2014, 08:48:33 AM »
I believe in a previous post I might have given a listing of flours from different manufacturers which fall in the 12% protein content range. If I'm wrong let me know and I'll post the list for you.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I remember seeing Tom's list but couldn't find it on the forum. So, I decided to search the PMQ Think Tank to see if the list was posted there. Tom can correct me if I am wrong, but this may be the PMQTT post Tom had in mind: http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/flour.15268/#post-93112.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2014, 09:36:42 AM »
Peter;
You nailed it! :)
The second to the last sentence is the meat that we are chewing on here.
That's the problem when you write as much as I do, you know what you wrote but can't remember where you wrote it. Has anybody seen my car keys? :-D
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline scott123

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2014, 09:53:11 AM »
  aww yes!!! Spring King... will have to see if i can find it,, did not have any luck a few yrs back, who was spring king made by, refresh my memory


http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/spring_king_spring_patent.html

It use to be milled by Cargill, but Cargill flour merged with Conagra flour (I'm not sure this is a good thing, but we'll see). I have never fully tested it, but I'm 99.9% certain that Full Strength is capable of producing the same results.

Bouncer and balancer (and All Trumps and KASL) are 14% protein.  That's too much for pizza, imo.

Tom, thanks for the information relating to the test of unbleached flour vs. bleached.


Offline Adrian

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2014, 01:03:29 PM »
Don't listen to scott123. Bromated flour is illegal in a lot of countries. As an artisan baker you would loose all your pride using it; as a prefessional baker you would also loose either your job (in Europe e.g.) or at least customers (In the US or at least in California e.g. you need warning labels).

Offline scott123

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2014, 01:22:09 PM »
;D

Adrian, is there pride in making better bread and better pizza? With bromate's thoroughly confirmed ability to produce better oven spring in baked goods, I would expect the superior pizza and bread being made with bromate to be a source of a great deal of pride.

Not to mention, I'm absolutely certain that American non Californian bakers and pizzeria owners that have actually put in the time to research bromate have tremendous pride for relying on science, rather than blindly allowing nanny states to make decisions for them- decisions based on unfounded fears and paranoia. Actually being smarter than a politician is not that significant of a feat, but I can tell you that I, personally, take a great deal of pride being part of a very large grassroots community unwilling to be bullied by ignorance.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 01:25:39 PM by scott123 »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 03:54:25 PM »
Scott/Adrian;
While bromate is not illegal to use in the U.S. some states do require a health risk warning on the label of products made with bromated flour. There was never a problem with bromate because it was thought that all of the bromate was converted to bromide during the baking process, but in the early 1970's new detection methods were developed and residual "bromate" was found to exist after baking. With the philosophy that bromate is indeed a potential carcinogen, the question was posed:Just how much of a known carcinogen do you want to consume? The answer was none. Consumers around the world were now beginning to question everything when it came to cancer so when bromate and carcinogen were mentioned in the same sentence the politicians reacted immediately by banning bromate (Europe, Canada and all other countries following their lead) while the U.S. took a more logical position of asking if the levels now being detected (parts per billion/PPB) were dangerous to ones health. I'm not aware of any specific types of cancer or health problems that have been traced directly back to consumption of bromate, if it was bromate would be gone in a flash. To be honest, I'm more concerned about air quality than I am about my potassium bromate intake. That's just my own personal take on it. Others may feel differently and if it makes them feel better or safer to avoid bromate, so be it. Due to public/consumer pressure and concerns all major fast food companies and most large food manufacturing companies have taken bromate out of their dough formulations, with that said, we now have some oxidative enzymes available to work with that are looking to be about as effective as bromate so there is a continuing shift away from bromate since there is now a good alternative that wasn't available a few years ago. I'm now working with food companies to get azodicarbonamide aka yoga mats out of their product formulations and I'm glad to say that with the alternative ingredients that we have to work with today this is proving to be a pretty easy thing to do.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline scott123

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2014, 05:19:55 PM »
with that said, we now have some oxidative enzymes available to work with that are looking to be about as effective as bromate so there is a continuing shift away from bromate since there is now a good alternative that wasn't available a few years ago.

Tom, while it's encouraging to hear that advances are being made in bromate alternatives, considering how much misplaced faith has been placed in ascorbic acid as a viable bromate replacer, excuse me if I don't hold my breath.

Besides, I believe it's the oxidizing aspect of bromate that's dangerous, in massive quantities, to rats, so I'm guessing that any compound with similar oxidizing properties could also end up on the same nanny state hit list.

To be honest, I'm more concerned about air quality than I am about my potassium bromate intake. That's just my own personal take on it. Others may feel differently and if it makes them feel better or safer to avoid bromate, so be it.

If we lived in a world without tin foil hat wearing politicians/lobbyists, and we could walk into stores/distributors and find bromated flour peacefully co-existing next to unbromated flour, then it could fall down to each individual's opinion and everyone could march to their own tune.  Without making people aware of the inherent harmlessness of the parts per billion bromate found in pizza, though, all of the U.S. could easily follow California's lead and fall prey to the hysteria.  Illogic must be counteracted with logic.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 09:30:45 AM »
Scott;
Not really, ascorbic acid is an excellent oxidizer in dough systems and there is essentially no limit in place regulating how much can be used. Flour millers have a maximum limit of 200 ppm but as bakers/food processors, we can add whatever we need. How safe is ascorbic? Runners have been known to take thousands of milligrams of ascorbic acid twice a day. Additionally, ascorbic acid is approved for use just about world wide. Several years ago the only two dough oxidizers that we had to work with were ada/azodicarbonamide and ascorbic acid. The problem we had at that time was that the use of ada was limited by regulation and when considering the rate of reaction, ada was just a little slower reacting than ascorbic acid, the solution was to use microcrystalline encapsulation on the ascorbic acid to delay its reaction so it would react in the dough after mixing rather than during mixing. The strong point for bromate is its timing of reaction. I reacts late in the dough processing stage and all the way into the very early baking stages where everything else was spent within an hour or so after mixing if not in the mixer. Because of this the early bromate replacers got a less than stellar review. With regard to safety issues, it is the bromate not being 100% converted to bromide that poses the health concerns, this is well documented, not the oxidizing properties, like I said, if that were the case many of us would be dead already due to the massive doses of ascorbic acid (vitamin-c) that we have taken over extended periods of time. With all of that said, am I against bromate? Of course not, that is a personal decision that each of us must make. Does  bromate work? Absolutely! Do we really need it? The answer to that depends upon who you ask, some say they can live without it, others can't so they sit back and complain about how good it was in the "good old days", while still others embrace the new bromate replacers which have demonstrated their ability to function equally as well as bromate but without the consumer stigma tied to bromate. This is why we see both bromated and non-bromated flour being sold today. My guess is that eventually the bromate replacers will become mainstream and bromated flours will no longer be available and in 50-years somebody will find something wrong with the bromate replacers and the cycle will start all over again because that how things normally work.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline vtsteve

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Re: baking pizza and breads
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2014, 10:35:39 AM »
The only thing the mill is doing is bleaching out the beta carrotinoid pigments (yellow color) from the flour.

It's a personal choice - I like the color that unbleached flour gives my bread. So that's what I use.