Author Topic: Caputo OO vs KABF  (Read 371 times)

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Offline peteH

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Caputo OO vs KABF
« on: June 07, 2014, 09:01:55 PM »
If you have two doughs with all things the same with the exception of the flour being caputo 00 and the other being KABF, what cooking differences would you expect to see in a WFO with a hearth temp of around 700F?  My experience is the leoparding on the 00 is smaller and more dispersed where the KABF has more of an overcooked /burned look to it.  Is this one of the main differences and the reason 00 is used at the higher temp bakes?  More info about the dough is : flour = 268 g, water = 182 g, 0.25 tsp of salt, 0.25 tsp of yeast (ADY), and 1.5 tbl of olive oil with an overnight in the fridge.  The dough with 00 looks and feels wetter.  This has probably been asked before, my apologies, thanks.


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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 09:33:04 PM »
Pete,

No need to apologize.

There are a couple of things to keep in mind.

First, the Caputo 00 flour is unmalted, whereas the KABF is malted and, all else being equal, there will be increased sugar creation and increased crust coloration with the KABF. This means that the WFO bake temperature should be lower for the KABF than for the Caputo 00 flour.

Second, the rated absorption value for the Caputo 00 flour is around 55-57% (see http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pizzeria-SPECS.pdf ), whereas for the KABF it is 62%. Your hydration value is 67.9%. That is higher than the rated absorption values for both of the above mentioned flours. But, on a relative basis, the Caputo dough will be wetter than the KABF dough. Are you taking any specific measures, such as stretch and folds and rest periods, to reduce the wetness of the two doughs?

Peter

Offline peteH

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 10:05:05 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for the info.  I usually make my dough with the KABF and I knew it was wet but I do that to avoid the skin formation while it's in the fridge (how do you avoid that?).  My dough formation method is simple: combine the water, oil, salt, and yeast and then add the flour in the Kitchen aid bowl.  I stir it up with a spoon briefly to mix and then I mix it with the Kitchen Aid and dough hook for about 2 mins after which I transfer that into a glass bowl with lid and place in the fridge.  I do like how this dough opens up when I am forming the pie (about 14") and it bakes pretty good most of the time.  Occasionally 1 or 2 spots on the rim can be doughy.  I would like the crust a little crispier though.

Pete

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 10:40:19 PM »
Pete,

I wouldn't worry about the formation of a skin at the outer surface of the dough ball. If such a skin develops, you can always spritz the dough ball with a water spray. Or you can lightly oil the dough ball when you place it into its storage container.

You might try lowering the bake temperature and increase the bake time with a KABF dough if you want increased crispiness. With a hydration value of 69.7%, a fast bake at very high temperatures is likely to lead to parts of the pizza being underbaked or pasty or gummy. A lowered bake temperature and a longer bake time should help you get a more crispy crust. The oven spring might be reduced somewhat but that is one of the tradeoffs to get a thicker, more crispy bottom crust when using high hydration values (water plus oil).

In my last post, I neglected to make a couple of other points. Specifically, the Caputo 00 flour has less damaged starch than the KABF, and it should be noted that oil also has a wetting effect. The reduced damaged starch for the Caputo flour means that there will be less creation of natural sugars through amylase enzyme performance to create increased crust coloration through caramelization and the Maillard reactions. The use of very high WFO bake temperatures alleviates this problem somewhat and will also denature more of the protein to get additional crust coloration.

A final comment. I noticed that you used the ADY in its dry state. The recommended way of activating ADY is to prehydrate it in a small portion of the formula water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. The prehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water or to the other ingredients.

Peter

Offline peteH

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2014, 08:49:37 AM »
Peter,

I will activate the yeast as you suggest.  Are there other suggestions you have (or others) with how I make my dough that will allow me to decrease the water %?  I mix for only 2 mins as I have read overmixing is not good.  Should I go up to 5 mins?  One thing I haven't done because my dough is pretty wet is ball the dough, with a drier dough, how important is that?  Thanks,

Pete

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2014, 09:23:13 AM »
What are you trying to achieve Pete?  With a temperature of only 700F and your location my guess is you are after something New Haven Style?  If that is the case 00 flour has no place in the equation.
-Jeff

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2014, 09:38:12 AM »
Pete,

What you are proposing to do seems to be verging on a no-knead dough as was popularized several years ago by Jim Lahey. If you do an advanced forum search using the terms "Lahey no knead dough" and "Lahey no-knead dough" (without the quotes), you will find many posts and articles on that style of dough. An example is the article at http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/03/jim-laheys-no-knead-pizza-dough-recipe.html. If you look at the recipe in that article, you will see that the hydration comes to 70%, or a bit less than what you have been using. That is a value that would rarely be used commercially by Neapolitan pizza makers. We have some members who can work with high hydration values for the Neapolitan style but they are highly skilled and experienced and also rare.

In your case, the only way to learn about the effects of hydration on a dough is to conduct experiments. For example, you might try using a hydration of around 59-60% and make adjustments from there based on your results. If the Neapolitan style is what you are after, and noting that you posted in the Neapolitan board, and you plan to use the 00 flour, you will want to give the dough a fairly long knead time in order to develop the gluten from that flour.

Jeff makes a good point also. You should first determine what kind or style of pizza you want to make and then look for the formulation and methods that go with that style. Since you mentioned the WFO, and posted on the Neapolitan style board, I assumed that you were after a Neapolitan style pizza using a 00 flour.

Peter

Offline peteH

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2014, 10:30:03 AM »
Jeff, Peter,

Thanks for the info and questions.  This is drifting (in a good way) from my original post.  I do want to make New Haven style pies as I like heavy toppings and my oven temps are not up to Neopolitan temps (except for the first 1 or 2 pies in my WFO - I am working on remodeling with more insulation, you may have seen my posts related to this over on the hearth oven pages).  I also have realized my dough is wetter than most use so I thought I could correct it as well.  Am I correct in my belief that if I improve my dough formulation method to more traditional methods (or a hybrid), I can reduce the hydration and make the crust more crispy.  Is this correct?

Thanks,

Pete

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Caputo OO vs KABF
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2014, 10:38:43 AM »
A drop in hydration will lead to a slightly crisper product, but the real key is a longer bake time, which means lower temperature.  Another trick it to go against all prior pizza knowledge and put the cheese on the bottom and sauce on top. 

I could give you dough formulations and processes, but none of what I do in my coal oven is 100% New Haven.  I bake hotter and shorter, more like New York Coal, but I top more like New Haven and my finished product looks more New Haven. 

If I were you I would try dropping them temperature to 650, using Scott's 1-2-3 dough, putting the cheese on the bottom and the sauce on top, tweak from there.  Depending on your hearth material you may need to drop down to 600 to get into crispy bake times.  In my experience you've got to get to at least 5 minutes bake time to enter crispy territory. 
-Jeff