Author Topic: Another 5 fold adventure  (Read 2844 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Another 5 fold adventure
« on: June 14, 2014, 12:08:32 AM »
In this exercise I am going to try to incorporate a 24 hour room temperature fermentation into my dough process...before I scale, ball, and refrigerate for later use at my convenience.  I'm also going to continue my dough mixing procedure as it hasn't failed my yet.

The recipe is as follows:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (3%):
Total (165%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

694.15 g  |  24.48 oz | 1.53 lbs
430.37 g  |  15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs
20.82 g | 0.73 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.73 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
1145.34 g | 40.4 oz | 2.53 lbs | TF = N/A
286.33 g | 10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs
 
 
17.35 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
17.35 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
34.71 g | 1.22 oz | 0.08 lbs

 
676.79 g | 23.87 oz | 1.49 lbs
413.02 g | 14.57 oz | 0.91 lbs
20.82 g | 0.73 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.73 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
34.71 g | 1.22 oz | 0.08 lbs
1145.34 g | 40.4 oz | 2.53 lbs  | TF = N/A

I'm using All Trumps flour, cold tap water, and my Ischia.  I pour all my ingredients into the bowl of my kitchenaid, and mix with the paddle for 1 minute.  The dough rests 5 minutes.  I then use the paddle again for one minute, this time at about speed 3.  I place the dough in my plastic container and arrange it using a stretch and fold.  I then follow with 4 more folds in 15 minute increments.  After the last fold, the dough is left to sit for 24 hours untouched.  After 24 hours, its is scaled, balled and refrigerated so I can use it at my convenience.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 12:14:37 AM »
Here is dough 1....bulk fermented 24 hour room temperature, and then refrigerated for 32 hours.  It was taken out 6 hours prior to bake and was baked in a 540 degree deck oven.  Excellent pizza!!
John

Offline Wazza McG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 172
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia.
  • Aussie Aussie Aussie .... Oi Oi Oi !!
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 12:19:29 AM »
How much yeast - long fermentation period - looks great
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 26239
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 09:01:45 AM »
John,

Your pizza and crumb look delicious!  :pizza: I am curious why you used such a high salt value.

Norma

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 02:13:16 AM »
John,

Your pizza and crumb look delicious!  :pizza: I am curious why you used such a high salt value.

Norma

I was reading up on Craig's neapolitan process, and thought that since I was going to make a dough with 3 ingredients, I would follow his lead to see what would happen....it was a good choice.

How much yeast - long fermentation period - looks great

NO yeast, 5% sourdough culture by weight of flour

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 02:18:05 AM »
Here is dough number 2......24 hour room fermentation, refrigerated 68 hours.  Taken out 5 hours prior to bake.  This is again baked in a 540 degree deck oven, it is more crisp than the first one, and it is more tender.... it is out of this world......

John

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19450
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 12:33:44 PM »
Good looking pies, John ... for a refrigerated dough  ;)
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 01:29:59 AM »
Good looking pies, John ... for a refrigerated dough  ;)
OK Craig,
But I got to tell you, refrigeration adds qualities otherwise unattainable by other methods....now whether one likes those qualities or not is another story.
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 01:32:52 AM »
Here's the last dough of this series.  24 hour room temp, 92 hour refrigeration, baked in  540 degree oven.  Crisp, tender, delicious!!

John


Offline tinroofrusted

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1622
  • Location: OC, CA
  • Experimenting....
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 08:51:00 AM »
Fazz, those pizzas look fantastic. Just about ideal, especially underneath.  Thanks for posting those. 

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 26239
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 10:36:42 AM »
Fazz, those pizzas look fantastic. Just about ideal, especially underneath.  Thanks for posting those.

 ^^^   :drool:

Norma

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3336
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 11:03:37 AM »
OK Craig,
But I got to tell you, refrigeration adds qualities otherwise unattainable by other methods....now whether one likes those qualities or not is another story.
John

Hi John:

Is it possible for you to describe what those qualities may be?   In reading his many excellent posts, I have been forewarned by Craig about some negatives but, aside from ease in scheduling, I am unclear about what else there may be on the positive side.

Thanks
Mitch

PS Beautiful pies!
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 11:40:32 AM »
Hi John:

Is it possible for you to describe what those qualities may be?   In reading his many excellent posts, I have been forewarned by Craig about some negatives but, aside from ease in scheduling, I am unclear about what else there may be on the positive side.

Thanks
Mitch

PS Beautiful pies!

Ease of scheduling is number 1.  Refrigeration also creates a crisp crust.......I mean actually crispy where you can hear the crunch with your teeth and in between your ears as you chew.  The amount of crispiness varies, but it surely isn't a foldable crust.  You also find, that the crust just gets more tender with time losing a little of the chewiness.  Another thing I have found in this exercise, is that I can take my dough out of the fridge to warm up for almost as long as I want, as the dough tends not to rise quickly in its container...nonetheless each dough opens up very easily.

But, in my mind, for anyone who cares to listen...the real story is the mix method, as it takes absolutely no thought or judgement.  When I teach newbies how to make pizza at home, I now go to the stretch and fold method...it just can't be much easier.
John

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 136
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 04:17:28 PM »
John,
How does this version compare to the previous one which was refrigerated right away? Do you have a preference?

Offline tinroofrusted

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1622
  • Location: OC, CA
  • Experimenting....
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
But, in my mind, for anyone who cares to listen...the real story is the mix method, as it takes absolutely no thought or judgement.  When I teach newbies how to make pizza at home, I now go to the stretch and fold method...it just can't be much easier.

Do you think you can get away with hand mixing instead of the machine mixing at the outset?

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2014, 10:13:13 PM »
Do you think you can get away with hand mixing instead of the machine mixing at the outset?

Of course you can!!  Just mix it the old fashioned way before there were mixers.
John,
How does this version compare to the previous one which was refrigerated right away? Do you have a preference?

First of all, remember that I'm trying to create a dough to be used in my home oven or my deck at work.  If I were going to make a dough for a 2 stone, or  WFO I might use a completely different process.
This experiment was interesting to me because I wanted to combine two procedures into one.....that is I wanted to know if I could develop the flavor using a long room temperature rise, and then refrigerate to make it handy to use.  So, I used a lot less culture in this exercise, than I do in my other version where I'm using a larger percentage to use as flavor.  As far as quality of product, I'd say its almost a draw.  For simplicity, immediate refrigeration is the better way...fewer steps to final product.

john

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 04:11:31 PM »
Hi John:

Is it possible for you to describe what those qualities may be?   In reading his many excellent posts, I have been forewarned by Craig about some negatives but, aside from ease in scheduling, I am unclear about what else there may be on the positive side.

Thanks
Mitch

PS Beautiful pies!

Last night I was putting some doughs in the fridge and realized and still had one more dough from this exercise hiding in the back.  This is another huge positive quality for refrigerating dough.  The following dough was room fermented 24 hours, refrigerated 176 hours, and was warmed up for 5 hours prior to bake.  You can see there is very little action in my dough container, even after 5 hours at room temperature...but the crust was excellent, not as crispy as younger doughs, but strong enough to stand on its own...also had great color and flavor.

John

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19450
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2014, 07:02:32 PM »
Very cool crust coloration.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline brianw

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 21
  • Location: chicago burbs
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2014, 01:23:59 PM »
I like the fact that you are refrigerating for a long period with good results. My thought is was what would happen with a shorter warm up? Say, 1 to 2 hours. It would make it a ready to use dough. You could come home from work pull the dough and have ready by the time everyhing else is prepped.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2014, 08:33:04 PM »
I like the fact that you are refrigerating for a long period with good results. My thought is was what would happen with a shorter warm up? Say, 1 to 2 hours. It would make it a ready to use dough. You could come home from work pull the dough and have ready by the time everyhing else is prepped.

I do this all the time with yeasted dough... especially at the 3 or 4 day mark...
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2015, 10:44:31 PM »
I'm enthralled with the results I get using bulk cold fermentation, so I wanted to test it myself on a sour dough batch.  I used the exact same amounts of ingredients as at the beginning of the thread.  I also mixed exactly the same except for the stretch and folds, where I stretched the rest time between folds to 30 minutes.  After the last fold I let the bulk dough sit at room temp for 22 hours and which time I placed in the fridge.  This first pizza was cut from the dough which had been refrigerated for 8 hours.  It was balled and placed in its container and placed back in the fridge for 6 hours before it was taken out to warm up for 5 hours prior to bake.  My goal was to achieve the perfect egg shell bottom, I didn't quite get there, but had a nice thin sturdy crust anyway.  It was baked in my home oven, and I have to say, the dough was a joy to work with, perfectly strong, but easy to open, and absolutely delicious.  I love the fact that  by refrigerating these doughs, i can use them at my convenience.

John

Offline ndg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 119
  • Location: columbus ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2015, 09:59:43 AM »
First Off, thanks to Fazzari for helping me.  Turned out great, super crunch, tons of flavor . . . and easy!   I followed Fazzari steps from this post and pulled some things from the re-ballers post.  I went with: 62% hydration, 3% salt, 5% preferment (Ischia SourDough Culture). I made 3 balls at 275 grams each. 

Originally, I wanted to cook (2) pizzas in oven and (1) pizza on blackstone to compare, so I mixed in some caputo 00 pizza flour too, thinking it would help with the higher heat from the BS.  So the recipe called for 492 grams flour . . and I went with 400g KA bread flour & 90g 00 flour.  Turns out, I baked them all in the home at 550F on hour long preheated stone.  Below are pics of a BLT pizza & the other is a Steubenville-Style Pizza (aka Ohio Valley-Style) where Cheese Goes on After Baking (mind blown I know!)


 

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2015, 12:45:41 PM »
First Off, thanks to Fazzari for helping me.  Turned out great, super crunch, tons of flavor . . . and easy!   I followed Fazzari steps from this post and pulled some things from the re-ballers post.  I went with: 62% hydration, 3% salt, 5% preferment (Ischia SourDough Culture). I made 3 balls at 275 grams each. 

Originally, I wanted to cook (2) pizzas in oven and (1) pizza on blackstone to compare, so I mixed in some caputo 00 pizza flour too, thinking it would help with the higher heat from the BS.  So the recipe called for 492 grams flour . . and I went with 400g KA bread flour & 90g 00 flour.  Turns out, I baked them all in the home at 550F on hour long preheated stone.  Below are pics of a BLT pizza & the other is a Steubenville-Style Pizza (aka Ohio Valley-Style) where Cheese Goes on After Baking (mind blown I know!)


 
It would be interesting to know if you would gotten a little more browning by omitting the Caputo, especially since you used your home oven.  Nice looking pizza!!
John

Offline ndg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 119
  • Location: columbus ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2015, 01:24:36 PM »
Yes I am interested in that as well.  Actuallly, I ordered new flour from amazon (General Mills All Trumps High Gluten Flour - Unbleached Unbromated - 7 lbs) so I will be playing around with this next.  Altough the browning was not great, the flavor and bite was excellent. 

My goal:  2) keep using ISCHIA SOURDOUGH with your re-ballers mix/s&f technique, 2) move this cook to the BlackStone (keep the stone temp / dome temp at around 650 max). 

Any other ideas for me to try?

Offline jcovey713

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 38
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Another 5 fold adventure
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2015, 11:54:13 PM »
John,

After you take the dough out of the fridge and warm it up, at what point do you reball the dough. You photo of the 176 hr dough looks like it filled the container and lost its ball shape. I'm guessing you reballed it at some point. Was it right when you removed it from the fridge or later after it warmed up? Thanks!

JC


 

wordpress