Author Topic: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions  (Read 1841 times)

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Offline gabaghool

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 03:00:46 PM »
You're rite vmsteve, a 24 hour room temp can produce a nice crust, but I know of NO new haven style pizza makers that do NOT ferment in the fridge.........that doesn't mean they don't exists, it means that there aren't many or aren't well known.  The cold ferment is one of the biggest aspects in making NH.......BUT I ADMIT, maybe not as big a deal in home settings.


scott123

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 05:14:40 PM »
The cold ferment is one of the biggest aspects in making NH.......BUT I ADMIT, maybe not as big a deal in home settings.

Nick, imo, it's an even bigger deal in home settings, since home bakers generally don't have the spacial constraints of commercial pizzerias.  Without being able to point to a cramped walked in, there's no excuse for the home baker not to cold ferment.

You do, obviously, find some folks who are in a hurry and are relatively happy with emergency doughs, but I strongly believe that most of the emergency people have a basic understanding of the price they're paying in flavor with a same day ferment.

Sanzz18, if you want the best possible tasting crust, plan ahead. If you want pizza on Saturday, make the dough on Thursday.

Offline vtsteve

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 06:02:28 AM »
Sorry, I forgot the style issue. :-[

Offline gfgman

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2014, 11:32:09 AM »
Maybe this is a dumb question.  I'm not standing in front of my oven right now.  I believe my oven rack only has a lip on one side.  Regardless, wouldn't it work to just turn the rack over so the lip is facing down?  I believe my oven is built such that you can face the lip down and the rack will still lay flat. 

Offline deb415611

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2014, 11:59:33 AM »
Maybe this is a dumb question.  I'm not standing in front of my oven right now.  I believe my oven rack only has a lip on one side.  Regardless, wouldn't it work to just turn the rack over so the lip is facing down?  I believe my oven is built such that you can face the lip down and the rack will still lay flat.

mine will not go in upside down,  I remember other people that have reported the same

Offline Seven

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2014, 12:00:50 PM »
Maybe this is a dumb question.  I'm not standing in front of my oven right now.  I believe my oven rack only has a lip on one side.  Regardless, wouldn't it work to just turn the rack over so the lip is facing down?  I believe my oven is built such that you can face the lip down and the rack will still lay flat.

That's exactly what I do. With the "lip" in the up position in the back of the oven I was only able to get a 16 inch (roughly) plate or stone on the rack before hitting the door. With the rack turned upside down, I was able to get an 18+ inch plate.

Offline Sanzz18

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2014, 08:53:34 AM »
The pizza making progress is really taking off. Everybody loves my pizza and says its getting closer and closer to how I want it to be. I will post a thread with pics this week as soon as I can. I do however have an issue I ran into.

I am bring pizza to work this week, which means I have to make more than just my usual two dough balls for two 14" pizzas. So I figured I would just double my ingredients that I obtained from the dough calculator. After the 7 minutes kitchen-aid mixing, the dough didn't finish the way it usually did. It was still rather tacky. Once I got it out of the ball and cut it to weight and formed dough balls, the tackiness went away. However, the dough balls seemed to have slight trouble holding their shape the way they usually do. Once I got them in containers and put them in the fridge, I checked on them a half hour since they just did not seem right. They seemed to flatten a lot more than usual.

What do you guys think could have went wrong? Should I have calculated it completely over instead of just doubling my original amount of ingredients?

Offline vtsteve

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2014, 11:12:17 AM »
Did you use the weights, or measure by volume? If by weight, you should be fine just doubling the ingredients. By volume, well, it's hard enough to be consistent when you're making the same-size batch over and over...

Just to clarify, when the amount of dough gets *much* larger -- if you started mixing 5-10kg at a time -- you might need to reduce the yeast, because of the 'mass effect'. Compared to a small dough, a large mass of dough has more volume relative to its surface area, so it will tend to ferment more quickly (because it retains more of the heat from yeast metabolism) and cool more slowly (if you are doing a bulk retard).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 11:59:23 AM by vtsteve »

Offline Sanzz18

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2014, 08:41:50 AM »
I measure everything by weight which is why I am so confused? The bigger the batc should i have maybe let the kitchenaid kneed it longer? I am just stumped with this one.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2014, 10:08:41 AM »
Should I have calculated it completely over instead of just doubling my original amount of ingredients?

When I half or double recipes, I always write the adjusted quantity out to the side before I start. If I try to remember to adjust each quantity on the fly, inevitably, I'll forget to adjust one.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Sanzz18

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2014, 11:48:13 AM »
Thanks Craig... How about mixing time? Do I still mix for 7 minutes?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2014, 11:55:48 AM »
Thanks Craig... How about mixing time? Do I still mix for 7 minutes?

That would depend on your mixer. If the increased volume causes it to  take longer to come together and/or knead, then yes.

Mixing is not about time per-se, rather it's about achieving the  "point of pasta" see: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149303.html#msg149303
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pp8082

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2014, 11:28:59 AM »
I've eaten at Pepe's many times.  They never open the dough by hanging it over their knuckles.  It is always pressed out by the finger tips.  For this to happen it has to be a very hydrated dough.
I do have to drink a lot of water after eating their.  So yes, the dough is salty.

scott123

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2014, 08:32:02 PM »
I've eaten at Pepe's many times.  They never open the dough by hanging it over their knuckles.  It is always pressed out by the finger tips.  For this to happen it has to be a very hydrated dough.

Pepe's dough is much wetter than my recipe.  When I said earlier

Quote
...this recipe produces the closest (imo) facsimile to Pepe's in a home oven.  It's not a pure Pepe's clone.  To achieve a perfect clone, a coal oven is mandatory. My recipe does it's best to compensate for a home oven's shortcomings.

I was speaking about hydration.  If you take Pepe's dough and bake it in a home oven, without the drying effects of coal, you end up with an exceptionally floppy pie.  The only way to match Pepe's rigidity while still maintaining good oven spring (from a fast bake) is to lower the water- and to use stretching methods appropriate for lower hydration doughs.

If you have a coal oven at home, then, sure, a Pepe's clone dough should have a considerable amount of water.  For the members of this forum that don't have coal ovens, though, reducing the water is the optimal workaround.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2014, 09:04:02 PM »
My experience with coal is still very much growing, but with 50-60 pies under my belt that doesn't match my experience.  Coal is VERY drying from above, but that doesn't seem to translate through to the bottom of the pie.  The bottom seems to cook pretty much how you would expect it to at that given stone temperature.  Maybe with the extended bake times common in commercial coal ovens there is extra drying to the bottom, but it is pretty hard to know where the effects of the extended bake time start and the effects of the coal begin. 
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2014, 09:09:06 PM »
My experience with coal is still very much growing, but with 50-60 pies under my belt that doesn't match my experience.  Coal is VERY drying from above, but that doesn't seem to translate through to the bottom of the pie.  The bottom seems to cook pretty much how you would expect it to at that given stone temperature.  Maybe with the extended bake times common in commercial coal ovens there is extra drying to the bottom, but it is pretty hard to know where the effects of the extended bake time start and the effects of the coal begin.

This makes sense. With no H20 as a byproduct of combustion - unlike wood and gas - I would expect drying on the top. I wouldn't expect a difference on the bottom however. It' not exposed to the air in either case. There is going to be a very steamy environment between the pie and the stone in any high temperature environment. Drier air above isn't going to change that.
Pizza is not bread.

scott123

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2014, 04:58:53 AM »
My experience with coal is still very much growing, but with 50-60 pies under my belt that doesn't match my experience.  Coal is VERY drying from above, but that doesn't seem to translate through to the bottom of the pie.  The bottom seems to cook pretty much how you would expect it to at that given stone temperature.  Maybe with the extended bake times common in commercial coal ovens there is extra drying to the bottom, but it is pretty hard to know where the effects of the extended bake time start and the effects of the coal begin.

I've only eaten Pepe's twice, but, during my research on reverse engineering, I watched quite a few videos and saw countless photos.  The overwhelming common denominator was a crust that was more rigid than NY- at both fast and slow bakes. If the dryness of the oven isn't impacting the undercrust, then it has to be some other aspect regarding the coal oven that makes the difference, and, until I get to the bottom of the mystery, I'm going to keep the lower hydration.

What else could be causing the rigidity?  I'm open to theories (seriously).  Is it the wood proofing trays?  We know, from Omid's valuable experimentation that wood dries out the dough, but is the drying that localized to the exterior? I'm not sure you could have a dough that's wet enough to push out with your fingertips, but still have an exterior that gives you rigidity in a 4 minute bake.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: New Haven Style Pizza Recipe Questions
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2014, 09:13:30 AM »
What else could be causing the rigidity?  I'm open to theories (seriously).  Is it the wood proofing trays?  We know, from Omid's valuable experimentation that wood dries out the dough, but is the drying that localized to the exterior? I'm not sure you could have a dough that's wet enough to push out with your fingertips, but still have an exterior that gives you rigidity in a 4 minute bake.

I would love to find out.  With my coal oven being a single pie oven it's nice to do 4 minute pies when I have lots of people to feed, but they are far from rigid.  I could try my much hated wooden dough boxes and see. 
-Jeff


 

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