Author Topic: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?  (Read 2396 times)

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Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2014, 12:53:33 PM »
Thanks Dr. Matt!
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.


Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2014, 09:22:34 PM »
We have Lift Off!!!!
I'm Psyched!

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2014, 11:20:12 PM »
Nice!!!
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 01:03:22 AM »
I'm gaining on you Donjo!

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 11:57:23 AM »
Now that's good to see!  Glad you're getting results - good job keeping with it!


Cheers,
Don
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2014, 11:04:32 PM »
So I made some dough. Bulk fermented for 24 hours, balled it for another 24 in a cooler with ice just like in Craig's thread.

I used KAAP since I was cooking in my home oven. It looked really good and tasted good too. I was a little surprised that it was kinda tough. I mean my HGF pies were more tender.

Any suggestions?

I'm thinking that it needed to rise more. It sat out 2.5 hours.  Maybe go with more yeast? I went with Craig's original recipe that was 1.3% but now I think he's revised to nearly 2%.


Offline jsaras

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 12:20:25 AM »
Did you measure the temp inside your cooler?  The amount of yeast is determined by the temp and desired fermentation time. 

If you had  a clear bowl you could see how much fermentation had occured.

The tenderness is often a factor associated with your   mixing protocol. Short bake times also contribute to tenderness.

It looks really good.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 02:04:41 AM »
Mix time was 5 minutes on "Stir" in KA as Craig instructs. I did 3 sets of 3-4 reps of stretch and fold with 10 minute rests. The temp inside the cooler was between 65-67.5 degrees.

I'm heading out to the store to get some clear bowls. Scott already told me to get them. I can usually see pretty good with the cellophane on my SS bowls but this is a little more finicky it appears.

I also noticed this dough was harder to work. It was more difficult to stretch and was stickier. Stuck to the peel and my fingers. This is strange to me as I usually use Bouncer and it stretches easier and generally was more user friendly than this KAAP.

Will the type of yeast affect dough consistency?

Also, as to the title of this thread, when my culture was blooming, I mixed it with a spoon which deflated it and scooped a little out and added the 6 grams into the bowl of water. Is that the correct way to do it?

Also jsaras, cook time was 4 minutes.

Thanks for your help mate!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 02:08:10 AM by drmatt357 »

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2014, 01:33:31 PM »
Dr. Matt,
That's a GREAT looking pie!  Nice work!
Jonas has great advice so I'll defer to him and others who know more (almost everyone)  But I'll provide some of my experience in answer to your question about starter effecting dough. Yes - it does.  I noticed a big change moving from dough with ADY to IDY.  I made note of some differences in texture when I ran ADY & SD tests with 2 dough batches made side by side with the same flour mix and ingredient %'s.  This is one of the big reasons I built the temperature controlled box.   Doing SD dough in the fridge didn't produce the same texture  (not as nice) as ADY.  Many, including Craig say keep SD dough out of the fridge. 


I've just started my no-fridge SD dough experiments. However, in the Chau threads, Craig threads, Et al. it seems like fermentation time and temp are the key  to success. However, for me thus far - knowing when the starter is ready - is the hardest part.  I've used an over active starter and made what can only be called "bread."  So, at this point I'm trying to use the Fermentation Chart and "visible cues" from the starter to find the right time to use the starter.  To active (like my starter picture you commented on) based on my pizza "bread" was way too active to use.  I'll share what I see as I work through it.


Look forward to more of your great looking pies!  And, to other members comments who are far more evolved that me!


Cheers,
Don
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.


scott123

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2014, 01:51:48 PM »
Will the type of yeast affect dough consistency?

Absolutely. Starter produces acid, that, to a point, develops gluten. Craig's process minimizes acid production, but you might have missed something and are getting more acid than he does. Were you able to perceive any tartness in the finished crust?  You shouldn't.

The other aspect that impacts texture is oven spring.  Neapolitan pizza is baked for 90 seconds or less.  When you bake pizza this quickly, it has an explosive quality that creates a tender end product.  The most important ingredient in Neapolitan pizza is, by a long shot, the oven. 4 minutes isn't going to cut it.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2014, 10:55:56 PM »
Thanks Don. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiments.

Yes Scott, I could taste the "sour". I'm not sure how I can reduce the acid if in fact that is it.

The other thing I would like to change is the color of the cooked dough. Where it wasn't charged, it was very pale or white. On a normal pie, I would add sugar to the dough. This SD dough has none. Reason?

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2014, 12:42:41 AM »
Dr. Matt,
There should be a (perhaps there is) a TLA for "the elders of the forum will provide guidance"  with all due respect and then some...


I struggle with using 00 flour.  "Red" " Blue". "Metro A".  But what I seem to be able to achieve by 'adding' it to the mix is a softness I don't get from 'pick a name' bread flour @ 3+ % per serving or even 4%. Usually with the greater % being a strong flour. 


I can't recall at the moment wether your using a home oven or a BS. 


I've watched your posts and you've seen/read what I've viewed.  Using some sugar (at the right time in fermentation) depending on your dough 'horizon ' could make a difference.  Personally, I've tried: agave syrup, c&h sugar, store honey, and locally sourced wild honey. Oh, and red wine.


There is a fair chance this all my own experience alone. however, the occasional use of a small amount of '-ose"  can have an impact on color and underskirt browning.


It almost seems like it is entirely predictive..it's all temp of fermentation.  Excess sugar "ose" brings some color. Done at the wrong time temp can give you slack dough.




Just my experience.  It will be educational to learn more from the forum. I've made blonde doughs and corrected it with many things - all sugar at some level.


You're inspiring!!


Cheers,
Don
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 01:04:25 AM »
Also, in my SD - I want the sour! Growing up in SF had an effect on me!  Therefore I'll qualify sweet/neutral/sour/spoiled as dough is discussed.  It's tough to discuss taste.  Everyone is right, right!?!
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2014, 01:10:31 AM »
Thanks Don. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiments.

Yes Scott, I could taste the "sour". I'm not sure how I can reduce the acid if in fact that is it.

The other thing I would like to change is the color of the cooked dough. Where it wasn't charged, it was very pale or white. On a normal pie, I would add sugar to the dough. This SD dough has none. Reason?

I don't add it because I don't need it nor do I want any sweetness in the dough.

There are so many variables (beyond the obvious like home oven vs. WFO) that even if two people try to do things the same way, they may have different results. This is especially true with SD. All I can do is give you a starting place. You have to experiment and tweak to find what works best for you.
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scott123

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2014, 01:38:21 AM »
Dr. Matt, I am by no means an expert on sourdough, but I have picked up a few things here and there.  I'm going to toss out  a few ideas here. If they've already been said, my apologies, and, if they're off the mark, Craig will correct me- as he always does :)

Craig's crust, as he's stated before, has no detectable sourness.  If you're getting sourness, then that's where at least some of your textural issue is coming from.  Sourness, in itself, may not be a defect, depending on personal preference, but it is a fault if you're attempting to mimic Craig's recipe.

From what I've read, washing (adding small amounts of starter to large amounts of room temp or warm water/flour and leaving at room temp for fast fermentation) seems to favor yeast activity over bacteria activity- ie, it seems to favor gas production over acid production.  At least, that's what I've read.  If you're seeing excessive acid, I would either incorporate a wash, or, if you're already washing, wash more aggressively.

But this will only take you closer to Craig's dough. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the oven is far more important than any aspect of the dough. If memory serves me correctly, you have an expensive oven, right?  Would you mind taking a photo of the broiler coils?  There's a very small chance your broiler can do NP bakes. If it can't, and you really have your heart set on Neapolitan style pizza, I think it's time to go shopping for a blackstone.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:40:35 AM by scott123 »

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2014, 01:50:39 AM »
Thanks for the help Scott. I guess I'm not really sure I'm trying to make Neopolitan. I just wanted to try some pizza with SD crust. I may be confused in that by definition, SD crust pizza IS Neopolitan.

Anyway, my oven, a Viking was somewhat expensive but that doesn't make it good. Had lots of problems with it and would not recommend them. On the other hand, my Wolf has been a work horse without a hiccup in nearly 20 years. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a broiler.

Here are some pics of my Viking broiler element:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:53:00 AM by drmatt357 »

scott123

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2014, 03:25:40 AM »
Sorry, Dr. Matt. I saw 'Ischia,' and Craig's workflow being mentioned and I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Caputo and SD are browning inhibitors.  Both, imo, are ideal for a very hot baking environment.  Even SD, on it's own, is more suited to Neapolitan than NY.

I have to admit that I'm a bit biased.  SD NY, in the commercial world, basically doesn't exist.  I would think that if it could make a world class pie, even if it were a bit of a hassle to work with, someone, somewhere, would have taken the baton, ran with it, and marketed the heck out of it.

I just don't see it as a good fit. NY greatly favors cold fermentation and 4-6 minute bake times.  SD, on the other hand, seems to really clash with refrigeration.

It also doesn't help that I've never seen an SD NY pie that matched up to the quality of the non SD pies that I've seen. This forum sees an inordinate number of Jeff Varasano fans who attempt to start their pizzamaking career making SD, so those beginner based failures don't help my perception much.  It might just be a matter of putting SD into the hands of someone with serious skills.

Even Jeff Varasano, who's primarily responsible for all this misguided SD NY fervor- Jeff, almost a decade ago, began his career doing cartwheels over NY style, but his SD pies are pretty much purely Neapolitan now.

Look at your non SD NY pies and your SD NY pies. I know you still have a lot of kinks to work out with the SD, but I'd be be pretty shocked if you were ever able to top the non SD with the SD.   I know this isn't going to make me a lot of friends, but those are my observations. On the other hand, with the right equipment, you could apply SD to Neapolitan and make something very different to NY, but still just as wonderful in it's own right.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 04:10:26 AM by scott123 »


scott123

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2014, 03:39:06 AM »
Re; the viking broiler, I've spoken, before, about guesstimating that about 1 in 300 people have strong enough broilers for Neapolitan.  You might be one of those lucky 1 in 300 people.  Do you have a cast iron pan that, if the seasoning were baked off, it wouldn't be a big deal?  I would put that (inverted) about 2-3" from the broiler and see, using the broiler to pre-heat it, how hot you can get.  Take temps of the top and the bottom of the pan.

If you can get that pan up to around 700, you might be in business.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2014, 09:42:32 AM »
I think I could get it to 700 because the other night I took out a NY pie and forgot to turn the broiler off and after 3-4 minutes, my plate got up to 645 degrees.  How would I use this for Neoplitan?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2014, 10:10:36 AM »
It also doesn't help that I've never seen an SD NY pie that matched up to the quality of the non SD pies that I've seen. This forum sees an inordinate number of Jeff Varasano fans who attempt to start their pizzamaking career making SD, so those beginner based failures don't help my perception much.  It might just be a matter of putting SD into the hands of someone with serious skills.
Scott,

I'd be curious to know which examples of SD NY pies you have seen. Also, have you ever made a SD NY pie?

Peter

Offline cupcake

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2014, 11:53:26 AM »
Very interesting thread for someone who's also just getting into the SD world.

I see a lot of people referring to sourdo.com as their only option to get Ischia. Just want to mention that I bought mine from culturesfromhealth.com. They ship to USA and Canada. I'm in Canada and the cultures were delivered promptly within 3-4 days. Postage was pretty outrageous for Canada, but c'est la vie.

Also, they have decent instructions and videos for how to activate and maintain the various cultures. I've found them helpful.


 

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