Author Topic: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?  (Read 1348 times)

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Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2014, 04:40:04 PM »
Dr Matt,
Others who know more will comment I'm sure.  My experience has been that if it dies out - drastically increase the quantity of flour in your feeding ratio.  Some bread making sites have suggester 4x flour to water.  I'd wait to see  what others post but mine had died out and over 3 days of feedings I went from about a 8oz. of starter to (fully active) 60+ oz.  Temperature again in my experience only, has more to do with maintaining a consistent starter (and dough) than almost anything else.  At least that is to say when I can control the temperature over time - I can produce reliable and consistent starter/dough.  See what the Culture Crew has to say...  Best of luck.
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Offline jsaras

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2014, 04:48:41 PM »
@drmatt357,

I had a couple of false starts, but once I had a culture that caught on it's remained usable for quite some time.

I just changed my feeding regimen a bit and it really made the culture perk up.  Bread maker Ken Forkish basically recommends keeping starters at 80% hydration.  That may or may not have anything to do with the fact that most of his bread formulations are at around 80% hydration. 

That aside, I took my Calmoldi starter out of the refrigerator.  I discarded all but 30 grams.   I added 2 parts flour (60 grams in this case) and hydrated the addition at 80% (48 grams).  The added amounts are twice as much as Forkish recommends, but the starter at least tripled overnight and it was the largest increase I've experienced.

It's worth a try.
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Offline parallei

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 07:16:30 PM »

That aside, I took my Calmoldi starter out of the refrigerator.  I discarded all but 30 grams.   I added 2 parts flour (60 grams in this case) and hydrated the addition at 80% (48 grams).  The added amounts are twice as much as Forkish recommends, but the starter at least tripled overnight and it was the largest increase I've experienced.


When I lower the hydration the starter has a bigger rise also.  I always figured it was because the stiffer dough column doesn't collapse as soon.  Who knows?

Offline jsaras

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2014, 09:20:17 PM »
I think that the theory is that the yeast has more "food" than water.
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Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2014, 11:33:14 PM »
Thanks guys. I went to Northwest sourdough dot com and looked at their suggestions. Was simple and made sense unlike the included instructions.

I put in 1/4 C of rye flour, 1/4 C of regular AP flour and 1/2 C of apple cider.  I have a good feeling it will get going again.

Donjo911, THAT is an impressive culture!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 12:16:39 AM by drmatt357 »

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2014, 12:53:33 PM »
Thanks Dr. Matt!
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2014, 09:22:34 PM »
We have Lift Off!!!!
I'm Psyched!

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2014, 11:20:12 PM »
Nice!!!
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
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Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 01:03:22 AM »
I'm gaining on you Donjo!

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 11:57:23 AM »
Now that's good to see!  Glad you're getting results - good job keeping with it!


Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.


Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2014, 11:04:32 PM »
So I made some dough. Bulk fermented for 24 hours, balled it for another 24 in a cooler with ice just like in Craig's thread.

I used KAAP since I was cooking in my home oven. It looked really good and tasted good too. I was a little surprised that it was kinda tough. I mean my HGF pies were more tender.

Any suggestions?

I'm thinking that it needed to rise more. It sat out 2.5 hours.  Maybe go with more yeast? I went with Craig's original recipe that was 1.3% but now I think he's revised to nearly 2%.


Offline jsaras

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 12:20:25 AM »
Did you measure the temp inside your cooler?  The amount of yeast is determined by the temp and desired fermentation time. 

If you had  a clear bowl you could see how much fermentation had occured.

The tenderness is often a factor associated with your   mixing protocol. Short bake times also contribute to tenderness.

It looks really good.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 02:04:41 AM »
Mix time was 5 minutes on "Stir" in KA as Craig instructs. I did 3 sets of 3-4 reps of stretch and fold with 10 minute rests. The temp inside the cooler was between 65-67.5 degrees.

I'm heading out to the store to get some clear bowls. Scott already told me to get them. I can usually see pretty good with the cellophane on my SS bowls but this is a little more finicky it appears.

I also noticed this dough was harder to work. It was more difficult to stretch and was stickier. Stuck to the peel and my fingers. This is strange to me as I usually use Bouncer and it stretches easier and generally was more user friendly than this KAAP.

Will the type of yeast affect dough consistency?

Also, as to the title of this thread, when my culture was blooming, I mixed it with a spoon which deflated it and scooped a little out and added the 6 grams into the bowl of water. Is that the correct way to do it?

Also jsaras, cook time was 4 minutes.

Thanks for your help mate!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 02:08:10 AM by drmatt357 »

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2014, 01:33:31 PM »
Dr. Matt,
That's a GREAT looking pie!  Nice work!
Jonas has great advice so I'll defer to him and others who know more (almost everyone)  But I'll provide some of my experience in answer to your question about starter effecting dough. Yes - it does.  I noticed a big change moving from dough with ADY to IDY.  I made note of some differences in texture when I ran ADY & SD tests with 2 dough batches made side by side with the same flour mix and ingredient %'s.  This is one of the big reasons I built the temperature controlled box.   Doing SD dough in the fridge didn't produce the same texture  (not as nice) as ADY.  Many, including Craig say keep SD dough out of the fridge. 


I've just started my no-fridge SD dough experiments. However, in the Chau threads, Craig threads, Et al. it seems like fermentation time and temp are the key  to success. However, for me thus far - knowing when the starter is ready - is the hardest part.  I've used an over active starter and made what can only be called "bread."  So, at this point I'm trying to use the Fermentation Chart and "visible cues" from the starter to find the right time to use the starter.  To active (like my starter picture you commented on) based on my pizza "bread" was way too active to use.  I'll share what I see as I work through it.


Look forward to more of your great looking pies!  And, to other members comments who are far more evolved that me!


Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

scott123

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2014, 01:51:48 PM »
Will the type of yeast affect dough consistency?

Absolutely. Starter produces acid, that, to a point, develops gluten. Craig's process minimizes acid production, but you might have missed something and are getting more acid than he does. Were you able to perceive any tartness in the finished crust?  You shouldn't.

The other aspect that impacts texture is oven spring.  Neapolitan pizza is baked for 90 seconds or less.  When you bake pizza this quickly, it has an explosive quality that creates a tender end product.  The most important ingredient in Neapolitan pizza is, by a long shot, the oven. 4 minutes isn't going to cut it.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2014, 10:55:56 PM »
Thanks Don. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiments.

Yes Scott, I could taste the "sour". I'm not sure how I can reduce the acid if in fact that is it.

The other thing I would like to change is the color of the cooked dough. Where it wasn't charged, it was very pale or white. On a normal pie, I would add sugar to the dough. This SD dough has none. Reason?

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2014, 12:42:41 AM »
Dr. Matt,
There should be a (perhaps there is) a TLA for "the elders of the forum will provide guidance"  with all due respect and then some...


I struggle with using 00 flour.  "Red" " Blue". "Metro A".  But what I seem to be able to achieve by 'adding' it to the mix is a softness I don't get from 'pick a name' bread flour @ 3+ % per serving or even 4%. Usually with the greater % being a strong flour. 


I can't recall at the moment wether your using a home oven or a BS. 


I've watched your posts and you've seen/read what I've viewed.  Using some sugar (at the right time in fermentation) depending on your dough 'horizon ' could make a difference.  Personally, I've tried: agave syrup, c&h sugar, store honey, and locally sourced wild honey. Oh, and red wine.


There is a fair chance this all my own experience alone. however, the occasional use of a small amount of '-ose"  can have an impact on color and underskirt browning.


It almost seems like it is entirely predictive..it's all temp of fermentation.  Excess sugar "ose" brings some color. Done at the wrong time temp can give you slack dough.




Just my experience.  It will be educational to learn more from the forum. I've made blonde doughs and corrected it with many things - all sugar at some level.


You're inspiring!!


Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 01:04:25 AM »
Also, in my SD - I want the sour! Growing up in SF had an effect on me!  Therefore I'll qualify sweet/neutral/sour/spoiled as dough is discussed.  It's tough to discuss taste.  Everyone is right, right!?!
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2014, 01:10:31 AM »
Thanks Don. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiments.

Yes Scott, I could taste the "sour". I'm not sure how I can reduce the acid if in fact that is it.

The other thing I would like to change is the color of the cooked dough. Where it wasn't charged, it was very pale or white. On a normal pie, I would add sugar to the dough. This SD dough has none. Reason?

I don't add it because I don't need it nor do I want any sweetness in the dough.

There are so many variables (beyond the obvious like home oven vs. WFO) that even if two people try to do things the same way, they may have different results. This is especially true with SD. All I can do is give you a starting place. You have to experiment and tweak to find what works best for you.
Pizza is not bread.

scott123

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Re: How Do I Use Ischia in Real Time to make dough?
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2014, 01:38:21 AM »
Dr. Matt, I am by no means an expert on sourdough, but I have picked up a few things here and there.  I'm going to toss out  a few ideas here. If they've already been said, my apologies, and, if they're off the mark, Craig will correct me- as he always does :)

Craig's crust, as he's stated before, has no detectable sourness.  If you're getting sourness, then that's where at least some of your textural issue is coming from.  Sourness, in itself, may not be a defect, depending on personal preference, but it is a fault if you're attempting to mimic Craig's recipe.

From what I've read, washing (adding small amounts of starter to large amounts of room temp or warm water/flour and leaving at room temp for fast fermentation) seems to favor yeast activity over bacteria activity- ie, it seems to favor gas production over acid production.  At least, that's what I've read.  If you're seeing excessive acid, I would either incorporate a wash, or, if you're already washing, wash more aggressively.

But this will only take you closer to Craig's dough. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the oven is far more important than any aspect of the dough. If memory serves me correctly, you have an expensive oven, right?  Would you mind taking a photo of the broiler coils?  There's a very small chance your broiler can do NP bakes. If it can't, and you really have your heart set on Neapolitan style pizza, I think it's time to go shopping for a blackstone.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:40:35 AM by scott123 »


 

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