Author Topic: Stanislaus vs arrezzio  (Read 3548 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2014, 01:57:52 PM »
TPT taco pizza thursday  :pizza:
nice pie!!

that crust makes me yearn for old skool PH thin.   :'(
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scott123

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2014, 11:28:26 PM »
Here's my two cents on Pizzaiolo (for whatever they're worth). Here are the ingredients (bold mine)

http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Pizzaiolo-Autentico-Pizza-Sauce.pdf

Quote
Vine-ripened fresh tomatoes, blend of extra
virgin olive oil and sunflower oil
, salt,
oregano, black pepper, granulated garlic and
naturally derived citric acid.

First off, there's never any oil in authentic NY style pizza sauce.  One or two places might drizzle oil on the pie pre or post bake, but never in the sauce. The oil diminishes the brightness of the tomato and takes away from the aesthetic. In addition, oil in the sauce adds overall oiliness to the cheese.  Good aged mozzarella should give off a healthy dose of oil- enough so that, when tilted downward, oil should drip off the point of the slice. It's standard operating procedure to blot the top of your cheese with a napkin to take off some of grease. At least, it was.  If you add oil to that equation, it's too grease-y. 

Second, some places use granulated garlic, but, anyone with any kind of culinary know how understands the superiority of fresh garlic.

Third, these are California tomatoes.  California tomatoes are always a little tart, always require a little sugar. 

There you have it, two ingredients I'd never use and one ingredient I always add (to California tomatoes).  And they expect me to pay extra for this than if I combined the ingredients myself?  Not a chance.

I know that the idea of a ready made pizza sauce appeals to a lot of people, but, here in NY, where cheap labor is relatively abundant and margins tight, you're not going to find many owners paying a premium for a sauce they can make cheaper themselves- especially a sauce that they can make better themselves.  I'm sure there's plenty of dollar store places that just default to ready made products like this, but no pizzeria with any kind of pride would stoop this low.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:03:46 AM by scott123 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2014, 11:34:35 PM »
....always require a little sugar.
i put a lil salt on those cali`s
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Offline norma427

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2014, 06:48:06 AM »

First off, there's never any oil in authentic NY style pizza sauce. 


Scott,

I never tried the Stanislaus Pizzaiolo, but I disagree about adding oil to some other Stanislaus products.  Even Tom Lehmann discussed using oil in pizza sauce at Reply 165  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.msg237549#msg237549 and why oil potentially results in a better flavor profile.

I learned about using oil in a sauce when I first was learning to make pizza sauce from a local pizzeria near me.  The man that taught me to use oil with Stanislaus products came from Italy at the age of 14 and then worked for family in NYC for many years.  The family pizzerias he worked for in NYC did add oil in their sauce and they made NY style pizzas.  He also still adds oil to his sauce.  When he came here to our area his relative had him working for him at his pizzeria for a few years and then set him up in his own pizzeria.  They have different pizzerias in our area now and they all add oil in their sauces.  There is also another NY style pizza business I know of in our area that the man also worked in NYC first and they also made NY style pizzas.  He also uses oil in his sauce and learned that in NYC.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 06:49:53 AM by norma427 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM »
Papa John's uses a pizza sauce that is made for them by Stanislaus but with added sugar and oil. The PJ sauce composition is given at Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg260046#msg260046; As noted at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6633.msg57765#msg57765, there are a few Stanislaus products that can be modified to be used for a PJ type pizza sauce. One of those products (but not the only one) is the Stanislaus Pizzaiolo tomatoes.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2014, 11:56:08 AM »
I don't know (or understand) why anyone would put oil in pizza sauce, regardless of pizza style. I don't know if this is because I have less understanding of sauce's purpose than others or if it's because I have more understanding of sauce's purpose. All I know is that when I've tried using oil in sauce, the sauce and oil always separate, which is a major hassle to me. That alone is reason enough for me to never put oil in my sauce. Also, oil doesn't seem to add any kind of desirable flavor to me.

Someone give me a good reason why I might want to put oil in pizza sauce.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2014, 12:20:18 PM »
I don't know (or understand) why anyone would put oil in pizza sauce, regardless of pizza style. I don't know if this is because I have less understanding of sauce's purpose than others or if it's because I have more understanding of sauce's purpose. All I know is that when I've tried using oil in sauce, the sauce and oil always separate, which is a major hassle to me. That alone is reason enough for me to never put oil in my sauce. Also, oil doesn't seem to add any kind of desirable flavor to me.

Someone give me a good reason why I might want to put oil in pizza sauce.

I like to make a cheese pizza where I cut the sauce with about 25%-30% good evoo and use a relativity small amount of dry WM mozz (sliced thin), a light sprinkling of white cheddar, and some black pepper - maybe a tiny bit of dry oregano. My normal crust and bake time/temp. I don't make it that often, but I should. It's one of my favorites.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2014, 12:51:42 PM »
Someone give me a good reason why I might want to put oil in pizza sauce.

I don't think there is a reason why you would. I agree it has no place in legitimate NY style. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of pizza made where it is appropriate. Fully-prepared pizza sauce is not made to make good pizza. It's made to make easy pizza with wide appeal. Sometimes I think we who frequent this forum forget that the pizza we make and enjoy represents only a very tiny fraction of the pizza eaten in the US.
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2014, 04:37:30 PM »
Sometimes I think we who frequent this forum forget that the pizza we make and enjoy represents only a very tiny fraction of the pizza eaten in the US.

 ^^^

And sometimes we aren't accommodating enough to those others. I would have to imagine that all of us eat/do something that other purists would consider an abomination to their passion.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2014, 04:48:47 PM »
^^^

And sometimes we aren't accommodating enough to those others. I would have to imagine that all of us eat/do something that other purists would consider an abomination to their passion.
EXACTLY!!   :)

And that`s why I don`t go to joe blow autobody repair forum and say....`Hey guys, can i sand this clear coat with a high speed grinder before i buff it out to a purdy shine?`... ::)

lazy lou`ies look like....well....lazy.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2014, 04:52:32 PM »
Someone give me a good reason why I might want to put oil in pizza sauce.

Ryan,

I can't give you any good reason that you might want to put oil in pizza sauce.  All I know is that it works out okay for the pizzas I offer at market.  I used November's MAE method of combining oil, crushed garlic and other seasonings in the Stanislaus product I use.  I never had any sauce and oil separations. 

I am not saying the sauce I use is the best pizza sauce.  I have tried many brands of tomato products for pizza sauces that I do like.

Norma

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 05:33:43 PM by norma427 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2014, 04:58:59 PM »
i like the oil add in those lil marinara cups you get when you buy a calzone.  and yes, it does separate.
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Offline gabaghool

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2014, 01:05:38 PM »
i didn't realize the NY sauce had no oil in the sauce.  But, really, I can't understand why a drizzle of EVOO isn't a must for pizza sauce, pre or post baked.  To me, all tomato sauces could use EVOO (only, not pumice, not pure, etc)  In fact, I can't remember one dish not utilizing some kind of fat in it...evoo or pork fat.  I think its as important as basil as something to use with tomatoes. Just my opinion.

One thing about oregano...I think if you use oregano, it should be added to every individual pizza, as you make it.  That way, oregano flavor is not in every single bite.  Batali is a big proponent when WHEN ingrediants get added....like if you add crushed red pepper in the beginning of the cooking process, you get an overall bite, put it in at the last minute, each bite is a bit different.....I like that idea.   I've noticed that adding oregano to the sauce bucket makes it real, real strong....and also, don't know if its true or not, but the sauce seems to go off quicker.....

Big stanislaus fan (valoroso) and big extra virgin fan.........

Offline jsaras

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2014, 06:16:14 PM »
I, like Norma, use microwave spice extraction for my sauce.  I tried using water as the "solvent", but I found that oil worked better.  I use 1-1.5 TBS of oil in a 28 ounce can.  That puts it in the 3.5% range.  Most people make the remark about how my pizza isn't greasy, so maybe I'm not doing it right ;-D
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2014, 07:05:45 PM »
I, like Norma, use microwave spice extraction for my sauce.  I tried using water as the "solvent", but I found that oil worked better.  I use 1-1.5 TBS of oil in a 28 ounce can.  That puts it in the 3.5% range.  Most people make the remark about how my pizza isn't greasy, so maybe I'm not doing it right ;-D

Some of the flavors are only fat soluble, so water extraction would not work as well. You will get the water soluble flavors when the oil+spices is added to the sauce.
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scott123

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2014, 08:50:25 PM »
i didn't realize the NY sauce had no oil in the sauce.  But, really, I can't understand why a drizzle of EVOO isn't a must for pizza sauce, pre or post baked.  To me, all tomato sauces could use EVOO (only, not pumice, not pure, etc)  In fact, I can't remember one dish not utilizing some kind of fat in it...evoo or pork fat.  I think its as important as basil as something to use with tomatoes. Just my opinion.

Nick, beyond the impact of the coal ovens, imo, you're looking at the greatest fundamental difference between New Haven and NY style pizza.  When I first started researching New Haven pizza, I was in shock by how frequently oil was drizzled on the pie pre-bake. The coal places in NY add oil, but, when you get into archetypal deck oven NY slices, you rarely find it.  They'll use vegetable oil in dough for it's baking properties, but you'll almost never find evoo on slices.

Fat is everything in food. Fresh mozz, unless it's bufala, gives off almost no fat.  So, when pizza first made it's way to America, and fior di latte was all that was available, fat supplementation was critical. Since these were Italian immigrants, it only makes sense that they'd reach for the oil of their homeland, evoo. If we were having this conversation 100 years ago, then I'd wholeheartedly defend evoo in NY style pizza.  But the melting pot kicked in and pizza evolved.  20th century aged motz, on a thin crust pie, gave off more than enough fat to please the taste buds, and notoriously cheap, margin watching pizzeria owners jumped at the chance to save a dime or two by omitting the evoo.

Was the result of this frugality a good thing? For people that love the taste of evoo, no.  But the phenomenon happened, with sufficient market penetration to define the style.  When you add evoo to NY style pizza, it changes the nature dramatically.  It no longer tastes like NY style pizza. It's something else.  For some, it might be better, but, for the city that defined it, for the millions that worship at it's altar, evoo is outside the canon.

Some people like evoo.  Some like provolone.  Others love sourdough.  That's good for them.  But none of these have any place in authentic NY style pizza.

When you say 'pizza has to have evoo' you're saying, 'I prefer NH to NY style pizza.' There's nothing wrong with that.  Before you completely pass judgement, though, I would ask you to eventually try my NY style pie and see if you miss it  >:D 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 09:09:33 PM by scott123 »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Stanislaus vs arrezzio
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2014, 12:03:05 PM »
nice pie!!

that crust makes me yearn for old skool PH thin.   :'(

it was a 50% hydration cornmeal/flour crust. it was in between a dry pita and a hard taco in crunch. still chew, still crunch. turned out great
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