Author Topic: Dough Making Problems!!!!!  (Read 3182 times)

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Offline LizzieTheChef

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Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« on: March 16, 2006, 08:11:57 PM »
I believe I tried the Tom Lehmann's New York style dough... I don't even remember what I used but what I'm aiming for is a dough that I can make thick crust pizzas with which are airy and bubbly and chewy. Right now my dough has small bubbles in it, but it just tastes too dense. The way we determine whether our pizzas are done is by lifting the pizza up and checking the color of the bottom of the crust (Because our household opinion is that if the pizza is burnt then no dice) and if it's starting to turn golden we try to keep it in as long as we can 'til the top is bubbling, the latest we will pull it out is when it is a kind of dark golden brown. Anyway, onto the recipe I use.

2 pounds of King Aurthur flour
18 fl.oz of warm water
4 tsp of yeast (Usually it takes one whole packet then half of the other so I just throw the rest of the other packet of yeast in, which is maybe another tsp)
4 tsp sugar
2 tsp salt
2 tbsp light olive oil

I mix all the dry ingredients then I throw it in a General Slicing brand mixer, and I knead the dough using the dough hook for about ten or twelve minutes on the lowest setting(labeled "Min"). Then I throw it in the oven to sit and rise for about an hour and a half, and then I punch it down, separate it into two pieces, and let it rise again for about 30 minutes. I don't refrigerate it or anything, I immediately start making the pizzas.

Now here is the problem I've been having. I don't know if the dough is supposed to smell faintly of beer, but I'll just mention that as well while I'm talking about this. Anyway, my dough first of all doesn't stretch. It feels very soft and smooth when I take it out of the mixer. It is also slightly sticky after I take it out of the pan after I've let it risen for the two hours. I always have to use a rolling pin instead of my hands to stretch it out in the beginning. If I try to pick it up with my hand and "fist" it out to stretch it (I don't know how else to describe it, but the dough is off the counter and is laying on your fist, the gravity cause the dough to fall over the sides of your fist and therefore is supposed to stretch it out) it'll start stretching but then it'll start poking holes, even when the dough is pretty thick. So I mean it's not even that thin when it starts to rip. When it's on the counter, and I use my fingers to kind of massage it outwards it slowly tries to spring back to its original shape like a ball of rubber or something. When I finally get the doughs out all the way, I throw it into the oven. My Dad insists that we cook it at 450 but I always turn it up to 500 when he's not looking. I think my oven goes up to 525 F. Last time we made pizza we used these metal pizza pans that we got from Kroger. They have holes in the bottom and it is kind of ridged. First of all, I don't even know if we're using the right pan. Even though our last dough was not that good because we screwed up rolling it out (we've come a long way since we made our first dough. Our dough right now is like I said bubbly but still somewhat dense) it still came out decent, so I don't think the pans were horrible.

I need to know what kind of pans to use or what to cook the pizza on, what is wrong with my dough, what temperature to cook the dough(my oven goes to around 525F I think) How long to knead the dough, and anything else anyone replies can think of. I don't have access to any specialty stores where I can get special flour if I am using the wrong flour, I just tried to get the best I could at the grocery store, as goes with everything else. I have access to anything in Kroger, Wal-Mart, and other chain grocery stores, however if there are places that sell this stuff that I do not know of I'd love to hear where you guys get your pizza equipment and ingredients, maybe there's a store around here that I don't know of or a place that sells it that I didn't think of. I also need to know whether to use active dry or rapid rise yeast and what the advantages/differences are to both.. I think it shows that I've never asked someone for help with my pizza dough which explains why I have so many questions. We are just a father and daughter who love to cook and want to make a pizza dough that's decent.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 09:57:11 PM »
LizzieTheChef,

The recipe you are using is not a Lehmann recipe. However, I think I may be able to help if you can answer some basic questions.

First, where did the recipe you used come from and what kind or style of pizza are you trying to make? Second, is the King Arthur flour you are using bread flour or all-purpose flour? Third, what kind and brand of yeast are you now using? Finally, what is the size of the pizza pans you are using?

My preliminary reaction is that the dough is too dry and has not been fermented long enough, and that may be the reason for the high elasticity of the dough. You didn't indicate how you use and combine your ingredients to make the dough, so there may be some problems there also. But those problems, if they exist, can be easily fixed. I am pretty certain that the faint smell of beer is from using too much yeast. If you are using two packets of yeast, you are using 4 1/2 teaspoons, which is far more than you need and will manifest itself by the beer-like smell you experienced. But that problem can also be easily fixed also. I believe your recipe can also be improved in many respects by using cold fermentation rather than a short, same-day fermentation. If you have a preference, please let me know.

Peter




Offline LizzieTheChef

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2006, 12:39:12 AM »
The recipe came from this site and I thought I found it in the Tom Lehmann thread but I can't find it anymore (or it wasn't there in the first place). I'm trying to make a thick crust pizza, with large bubbles, airy, light, fluffy, not dense, etc. I use King Aurthur All-Purpose flour, but I think there is bread flour there as well. Should I use that instead? I use Fleischman's RapidRise yeast (major spelling mess up), and I see now that I should use the amount it tells me to. For some reason I think I'm supposed to be getting Active Dry but I always pick up the wrong one. Should I use Active Dry or RapidRise?

The recipe I gave is a doubled recipe. Do I double everything? or should the yeast stay the same? This is the way I mix my ingredients: I put together all the dry ingredients (flour, salt, sugar, yeast) and I put it in the mixer and blend it all for about 30 seconds. Then I get warm water from the faucet, pour the olive oil into the water and start the mixer, then I slowly pour the water in, which takes about 10-15 seconds. I then let it mix for about ten or twelve minutes. I also don't know how long is too long to knead the dough. My Dad told me that on one food show a man said that the more you knead, the better, but I'm not sure. I know that too little kneading makes the dough feel weird so I would hand knead it for about 8 minutes (very tiring..) until we got a mixer.

About the cold fermentation, if it helps the dough then I'd be more than happy to use it. Usually when we make pizza we get the stuff and make it the same day, but it's not hard to get ingredients since the grocery store is about 3 minutes away form my house. What are the advantages or cold fermentation and how do I do it? Can you explain how I would prepare the dough for pizza when it is ready...

I use 15" metal pans with holes all around the bottom. Can you tell me what's the best pan for my oven? Or what will produce the best dough? What's the best temperature to use for the kind of dough I want to make? Thank you soo much for replying!!

-Lizzie

Offline varasano

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2006, 08:11:36 AM »
As you read on here, you will see this is not the recipe you need. Click on the globe under my name for a recipe that is closer to the real thing

Jeff

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2006, 09:12:22 AM »
Quote
This is the way I mix my ingredients: I put together all the dry ingredients (flour, salt, sugar, yeast) and I put it in the mixer and blend it all for about 30 seconds. Then I get warm water from the faucet, pour the olive oil into the water and start the mixer, then I slowly pour the water in, which takes about 10-15 seconds.


I have never—and I mean NEVER"—been able to get decent gluten development by adding the water to the dry ingredients. Most of the master pizzamakers (Pete-zza, Steve, pftaylor, Candave, etc.) on the site recommend gradually adding the dry ingredients to the water. That's been the key for me.

Cold fermentation is explained in the glossary.

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2006, 11:32:27 AM »
Lizzie,

You should of course consider other dough recipes on the forum. However, since you specifically indicated that you are looking for a thick-crusted pizza, I will tell you how to modify the recipe you posted to get you headed in the right direction. At some point, you may also want to take a look at the Sicilian section of the forum since a Sicilian style dough will also produce a thick crust. I suggest also that you take a look at Randy’s American style dough recipe since the dough made from that recipe will also produce a thick crust with the type of crust characteristics you indicated you prefer.

I will present my comments starting with the ingredients and then tell you how I would use your recipe, as modified, to make a same-day dough and a cold-fermented dough.

Flour. You can use either the King Arthur all-purpose flour or the King Arthur bread flour. I personally prefer the King Arthur bread flour because it has more protein and gluten than the all-purpose flour and will have a more developed gluten network that will hold the gases (mainly carbon dioxide) better and create a more open and airy crumb, which is a characteristic you indicated you are looking for. The bread flour will not produce as soft a crust as using the all-purpose flour but it will have a bit more flavor and chewiness and will result in a slightly darker crust. You should also get some tenderness in the crust through the use of the sugar and oil. The oil will also help with the extensibility (stretchiness) of the dough. In fact, if you wish, you can add a bit more oil to the dough.

Water. I would increase the amount of water in your recipe to 19-20 ounces by weight. That’s about 2 1/4 to 2 1/3 cups. Using the increased amount of water will increase the hydration of the flour and yield a slightly wetter dough that will ferment slightly faster and better and handle better than the dough you made.

Yeast. Essentially any kind of yeast can be used to make pizza dough. However, if you plan to make a lot of pizzas, I suggest that you look for one-pound bags of instant dry yeast (IDY) as sold at places like Costco’s and Sam’s and intended primarily for use by professional bakers. Some good brands of IDY include SAF Red and Fleischmann’s. If you can’t find either of those brands locally, they are available at many places online, including bakerscatalogue.com, Amazon.com, and pennmac.com (look under the Pizza Makers tab). A Google search should uncover many other possible sources.

If you have no choice but to use the supermarket yeast packets (or bottles), you can use any of the brands and types commonly available, including active dry yeast (ADY), bread-machine yeast (which is essentially an instant dry yeast but not called such), all-purpose yeasts such as the SAF Gourmet yeast, and the so-called fast-rising yeasts, including the Fleischmann’s RapidRise yeast or the Red Star Quick-Rise yeast. If you decide to use the Fleischmann’s RapidRise yeast--which, BTW, is not the same as the Fleischmann’s IDY sold to professional bakers--I would use it as I would IDY in any recipe calling for IDY. If anything, I might reduce the amount used slightly. In due course, you should migrate to the IDY brands mentioned above.

Same-day Dough. If you want to use the recipe you posted to make a same-day dough, I would reduce the yeast to 2 1/4 t.--or one packet of the Fleischmann’s RapidRise yeast if that is what you will be using. To make the dough, I would start by adding the yeast to the flour and stirring it in. I would then add the salt to the water, which can be at room temperature or a bit higher, and stir to dissolve. You can also add the sugar to the water and stir it in, but it can alternatively be added to the flour if you prefer. The flour mixture should then be gradually added to the water in the mixer bowl and mixed together at low speed on your mixer.

When all of the flour has been added to the bowl and the dough comes together in a rough ball, the oil should then be added. Adding the oil last keeps it from interfering with the absorption of the water by the flour. The dough should then be kneaded at low to medium speed only until it is smooth and cohesive, with no tears on the outer surface. It should also be a bit tacky. Since different mixers operate differently, you might find it useful to read the following thread which was put together to help beginning pizza makers on this aspect of the dough making process, among many others: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. The instructions given there are for a NY style dough, but the procedures are fairly generic.

Once the dough has been made, it should then be divided into two balls, lightly coated with oil,  put into separate covered containers, and left at room temperature. I recommend that the dough balls be allowed to ferment for at least four hours, at which time the dough can be punched down and allowed to rise for about another 2 hours. At that point, it can be used to make your pizzas as you have been doing. I estimate that the dough recipe you posted, as modified, will produce a total dough weight of around 54 ounces, or around 27 ounces each—enough to make two thick crusted pizzas.

Cold-fermented Dough. A cold-fermented dough will produce more crust flavor, and a better crust texture, color and odor. This is because of all the biochemical activity that occurs within a dough while it is under refrigeration. And the longer the fermentation, the more pronounced the crust flavors will be. To use the recipe you posted to make a cold-fermented dough, I would cut the amount of yeast back to a bit over 1 t. I would also use all cool water. The rest of the dough making process is the same as described above, but instead of leaving the dough ferment at room temperature it will be placed in the refrigerator. I suggest a 24-hour fermentation if you choose to use all-purpose flour and 48 hours if you choose to use the bread flour. After that time, the dough balls should be brought to room temperature and allowed to warm up for at least 1 to 2 hours. The dough balls can then be used for up to a few hours thereafter to make your pizzas, as you have been doing. You might find it interesting to try both a room-temperature dough and a cold fermented dough just to compare the two results.

Baking method. You should be able to use your perforated pizza pans, however for the type thick crust pizza you indicated you want I think you may want to consider looking into using another type of pan that is commonly used for thick-crust pizzas, such as a Sicilian or similar style pan. You can also use a pizza screen. However, if you choose to use the perforated pan, at least for now, I would suggest that you let the dough in the pan proof for about 45 minutes to an hour before dressing and baking to allow the dough to rise more and provide a thicker final crust. You can do the proofing in a slightly warm oven (no more than 100 degrees F) along with a bit of humidity provided by a cup of water that has been boiled. After proofing, the pizza can be dressed.

After the pizza has been dressed, I would use an oven temperature of around 450-475 degree F to allow the pizza to bake slowly enough to cook everything. To get better bottom crust browning, you can slide the pizza off of the pan part way through baking onto one of the oven racks. You can also use the broiler element to help bake the top of the pizza if it does not bake fast enough relative to the bottom of the crust. If you read the Sicilian section of the forum, you will see other possible bake options, including pre-baking the dough before adding sauce, toppings, etc.

Feel free to ask other questions. Good luck.

Peter

Offline LizzieTheChef

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2006, 06:44:08 PM »
Wow. I love that I found this site. Thank you very much Pete-zza and gottabedapan! I'll try out this new information this weekend and I'll follow up on what happens. I think I'll use cold fermentation this time.

-Lizzie

Offline gschwim

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2006, 04:47:31 AM »
Verasano,

I found your articlr on your experiments with "Jeff's Famous Pizza," very informative and interesting, espeically the info about using a sourdough starter.  I would love to try it; however, nowhere in your article can I find the recipe!  What are the exact ingredients and their quantities?  Also, I went to sourdo.com and it seems to me that the Italian Culture is what I want to order.  How much starter is needed for a typical batch of dough?  Also, it has been my understanding that once you have a culture, you can take a little of the finished dough and use it to generate some more starter, and so on and so on, allowing one single order of start, theoretically, to last foreve.  (I understand that Guiness has been re-generating the starter from their first batch of beer over 600 years ago!)

And, once again, the recipe!  At what point do I add the starter, how do I add it, how much do I add, etc.?

Thanks!

Offline bolabola

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2006, 02:49:02 AM »
same here verasano..
I found your dough information facinating but like gschwim stated I would like to know the ingredient amounts for let's say 4 12inch pies..
also, only made dough from a starter once many years ago so if you could refresh my memory as to how you use it and add it it would be a big help..
I can see how this must of takin you 6 years to perfect and hope I can get it down much faster..LOL..
as for the way you do your tomatoes I think I would prefer my homemade tomatoe sauce but I'll give it a try..at least with my fresh tomatoes from my garden but I think more flavor comes out if cooked first..

Damn Pete-zza..you for sure are the pizza guru..
do you have alittle of your history posted here on this forum..I'd like to know how you got started on this..

thanks to the both of you for your help..

BB


 
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Offline tonymark

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Re: Dough Making Problems!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2006, 09:14:26 AM »
Verasano ...

  I would love to try it; however, nowhere in your article can I find the recipe!  What are the exact ingredients and their quantities?

same here verasano..
I found your dough information facinating but like gschwim stated I would like to know the ingredient amounts for let's say 4 12inch pies..

gschwim and bolabola,

Check out Jeff's spreadsheet on his site (search spreadsheet).  I use this spreadsheet for ever single pie I make.  I have seen Jeff make dough and I am sure he puts the culture in the mixer with the flour, water and salt at the beginning of the mix. 

I personally mix water with culture, mix 30 seconds and then add flour.  I add the salt after autolyse.  Many people put the salt in before autolyse.

bolabola, 

The spreadsheet is set up for 13" pies, but for 12" pies try starting with 280-290 g pies. 

Good luck,
TM

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 09:28:39 AM by tonymark »
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