Author Topic: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...  (Read 4967 times)

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Offline AP

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Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« on: June 29, 2006, 06:13:44 PM »
I just received a shipment from Penn Mac of what I *thought* was Caputo pizzeria but it appears to behaving a lot like the Blue I got from Forno Bravo.

I did this:

Flour: 100%
Water: 60.8%
Sea Salt: 2.55% (dissolved in the water first)
IDY: About 1/4-1/2 teas.
EVO: 1 teas.

I put it in my kitchen aid with the hook on speed 1.  In about 7 minutes it looked like a cross between batter and pizza dough.  It stuck to the bottom and the hook was just senselessly twirling it around.  This sound right to you?

Normally I make a pretty strong dough...this is my NY forumla that I  use most often which works well for me:

Flour: 100%
- KABF: (90%)
- Arrowhead Mills VWG: (10%)
Water: 57%
SS: 1.5%
IDY: .25-.50 teas per ball
EVO: drizzle 1 teas per ball later in mixer + lube inside of ziplock bag

I just pile all the ingredients into the mixer and turn it on 1 for 5 minutes and on 2 for another 5 minutes.  Take it out and divide it into balls, place in a big zip lock bag and refridgerate for 24 hours up to 5 days.  This works good...but I wanted to try the caputo pizzeria.  The posted formula called for 60.8% -- this was not workable dough for me.  I added quite a bit more flour to the mixer just to make something familiar looking.  Am I missing something or did Penn Mac just send me Blue instead of Pizzeria?  I was under the impression that caputo "pizzeria" would hydrate similar to other high protein flours I've used like KASL, etc.

Thanks,
AP





Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2006, 07:18:40 PM »
AP,

Unless something has changed at PennMac, you should have the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, not the Extra Blue.

The mixing and kneading procedure that I have found to work best for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria doughs is described, starting at about the middle of the post, at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807. In your case, you would modify what I described there by adding the IDY to the flour and adding the oil once the bulk of the flour/IDY has been incorporated into the dough. Alternatively, you can follow the general steps outlined, starting at about the middle of the post, at Reply 8, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. The procedure outlined there is essentially my standard procedure when using commercial yeast, except that I would use the riposo when making the Caputo 00 dough as described in Reply 94 referenced above.

Working with 00 flours is a more challenging experience than working with higher protein, higher gluten flours such as the King Arthur bread flour or the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. The nominal hydration rate (absorption rate) for the King Arthur flours (bread flour and KASL) is around 62% or so, whereas for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour it is 55-57%. It takes experience and practice to be able to make the Caputo 00 flour/dough take on more water than its nominal hydration rate. I have found the general procedures referenced above to work the best at accomplishing that objective. Whichever approach you decide to use, it would be normal to have to make flour and/or water adjustments to get the dough to the proper condition.

Peter

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 07:46:41 PM »
Peter,

Thanks.  I read the post and my dough was in nearly identical condition -- I was just under the impression that higher hydration doughs promoted the cracker style crust which I was not after.  My dough too was sticking to the center dome at the bottom of the kitchen aid bowl precisely as you described (it wasn't sticking as much as the extra blue was at 60% now that I think about it).  So you're saying that you actually want this hydration -- so much that you limit your bench flour contact to preserve it.  Interesting.  Up until now most of my doughs are so strong you could almost play tug-o-war with them.  When I made dough with the extra blue at 60% hydration...it was a disasterous cracker.  The dough remained white even after 10 minutes on a stone at 550F...it just got hard.  I had feared with this latest caputo flour that I was back to that disaster.

I will go back to square one on this and go by those posts you mentioned.

Thanks again...

AP

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 08:37:37 PM »
AP,

One of the things I learned from working with the Caputo 00 dough is that you have to pay attention to the thickness of the skin. Even with the addition of oil, if the skin is too thin you can still end up with a cracker as you are waiting for the crust to turn brown. Interestingly, when I used a natural preferment, I did not have to use any oil at all. In that instance, I found that using a high hydration, a thickness factor of 0.09 and a 13" skin worked well. When I used commercial yeast, I found that a greater thickness factor helped for some reason. I described an example of where I used a rather thick skin, along with other measures, at Reply 250 at the A16 thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg23927.html#msg23927. The pizza described at that post that was really good was Pizza 3 (which, coincidently, was a cold fermented dough using the same sequencing of ingredients as the other posts I referenced earlier today).

I have concluded that it is not the 00 flour per se that is the problem but rather trying to adapt it to a home oven, especially when the dough formulation can take different forms--from room-temperature fermentation only, using commercial yeast versus natural preferments, and using cold fermentation. There is a major thread on this forum devoted to each of these, and you will go batty trying to rationalize them. The oven thermodynamics required in each case can be quite different, and each approach requires it own solution when used in a home oven environment.

Peter

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2006, 07:02:55 PM »
When you say "skin" are you referring to the outer most edge of your dough ball?  Or, rather, the thickness of the crust itself?

Also what blends have you tried in order to stablize your results with caputo in the home oven?  I've mixed extra blue with KABF and it seems to add some character and flavor.  What are some uses you've found for caputo without regard for any neopolitan rules?  Or would you consider caputo mixed with a domestic flour a waste of caputo?  You once mentioned mixing caputo with kasl.  I've also see some of your results with malt powder and dairy products and they look wonderful.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2006, 08:21:42 PM »
AP,

That's a lot of good questions.

"Skin" is a term of art used by pizza operators to refer to the dough after it has been rolled or hand shaped and stretched out to the desired size. It is the same thing as a "dough round". I don't think you will hear Neapolitan pizzaioli tossing around the term. It's strictly a slang U.S. term.

I have combined the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour with high-gluten flour before but that was for the purpose of trying to reverse engineer the dough made by Dom Demarco of DiFara's in Brooklyn. He uses 75% Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and 15% All Trumps high-gluten flour, both by volume. Domenic does switch around his ingredients from time to time, so it is possible that he may now be using other brands (he used to use the Delverde 00 flour before he switched to Caputo). I know that member scott r routinely combines 00 flour with either bread flour or high-gluten flour to achieve the results he desires in his modified (clean cycle) oven. I have combined the Bel Aria brand of 00 flour with bread flour to increase the protein and gluten content, in an effort to simulate the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. That worked well for my purposes. But apart from these experiments, I have stuck with the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour by itself. What I now strive for is to achieve a soft crust, even at the expense of sacrificing some crust color. Or I coat the rim with olive oil before baking and/or use the broiler element to coax more color out of the crust. If you push too hard for the ideal crust color, you will often end up with a more cracker-like or crunchy crust.

As you noted, I did play around with using things like diastatic malt, dried dairy whey, dry milk powder, and I even intentionally damaged the starch in the Caputo 00 flour (by running it through my food processor), all in an effort to get more crust color out of a finished Caputo 00 crust which, as noted above, has a tendency to bake up light in a home oven--and sometimes almost white. The experiments were a success and more crust color was produced but the color was not the same as you would get from baking a Caputo 00 dough in a high-temperature wood-fired Neapolitan oven. You will clearly see the distinction if you compare the photos of the pies I made with some of those posted by pizzanapoletana (Marco) of the real deal. I also discovered that the texture of the dough is affected by these additives. I thought the doughs handled better with the dried dairy whey, for example, but I think the whey also affected the texture of the finished crust. There are tradeoffs when using the additives. They do what they are supposed to do from a chemistry standpoint but they can't make up for basic oven deficiencies.

As for other uses of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour outside of the Neapolitan rules, I have used it with success in making doughs for deep-dish pies. I have tried using both a natural preferment and commercial yeast (instant dry yeast). You can see samples of my efforts at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg20625.html#msg20625. I thought the pies were elegant, mainly because I used some of the finest ingredients available. To the best of my knowledge, Neapolitans do not make deep-dish pies along the lines of our domestic Chicago-style deep-dish pies, so it was fun exploring its deep-dish potential. You can also use the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to make bread or rolls, although I have not done so. I believe that scott r uses the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour for all kinds of pizzas, including bar (pub) pizzas, so undoubtedly there is greater flexibility in using the flour than we have come to believe. I would place the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour roughly between pastry flour and all-purpose or bread flour, so applications that will benefit from that strength of flour should be fair game.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2006, 04:22:19 AM »
Peter, thanks for the mentions.

I only blend the Caputo with high gluten flour, never bread flour.  I have to do this because even my cleaning cycle is not quite hot enough to really get the Caputo as puffy and light as I would like it to.  High gluten four seems to help with this.

In a normal 550 degree oven I have never been happy with the Caputo unless I let it rise after shaping like I do when I make Greek pizza, bar pizza, Sicilian pizza, bread, or rolls.

I do especially like the KA bread flour because it works really well at high and low temps.

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2006, 02:40:10 PM »
Ok I had to come on here to report what ended up being a pretty excellent night of pizza making.  Firstly, the (what I thought was) ultra hydrated pizzeria flour using this:

Flour: 100%
Water: 60.8%
Sea Salt: 2.55% (dissolved in the water first)
IDY: About 1/4-1/2 teas.
EVO: 1 teas.

performed excellently.  I have attached a photo.  This dough ended up performing better than any of my other test formulas.  The crumb was very nice and complex with great moisture and nive voids.  Mind you...it was so hot that we couldn't bear the heat from the inside oven so I threw two unglazed ceramic tiles on the gas grill (Lowes, $2).  I got them ultra hot -- probably had them on the grill on high heat for about 45 minutes ($3 worth of propane later...).  Bad science, I know...new dough, new heat source....but at least I had the consistent heat source through all tests. 

I should note that all of these, including above, were simply thrown into a kitchen aid pro with the dough hook on speed 2 for 10 minutes, placed in a zip lock bag and put directly in the fridge for 24 hours.  They were taken out of the fridge for approximately 3 hours at room temp before use.  The salt was from Penn Mac...Trapani.

The other test formulas were:

Test #2
Flour blend: 100%
- KABF: (45%)
- Caputo Pizzeria (45%)
- Arrowhead Mills VWG: (10%)
Water: 57%
SS: 1.5%
IDY: .25-.50 teas per ball
EVO: drizzle 1 teas per ball later in mixer + lube inside of ziplock bag

This pizza ended up quite light and was also lacking the moisture that was so glorious in the original caputo recipe.  Still pretty darn good but I'm gonna stick with pizza #1.  I'm going to consider this a waste of caputo.

Test #3
Flour blend: 100%
- Caputo Pizzeria (90%)
- Arrowhead Mills VWG: (10%)
Water: 57%
SS: 1.5%
IDY: .25-.50 teas per ball
EVO: drizzle 1 teas per ball later in mixer + lube inside of ziplock bag

Better than #2 but still lacking that moist greatness of #1.  I did enjoy the added strength though so I might try lowering the percentage of VWG (it seems to have a strong flavor of its own) and increasing the hydration to maybe 60%.

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2006, 02:45:08 PM »
Oh I should note that the pizzas were all oval because I was cooking on two 12x12" tiles side by side.  Also that is Ezzo pepperoni and fresh mozz; my sauce is just tomato paste cut with water on this.  Probably 50-50...and just a very thin layer.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2006, 03:03:37 PM »
AP,

I'm glad to hear that you got better results this time. I agree with you that it is better to scrap the recipes you used for Test #2 and Test #3. I think they can be improved, but I don't see any point in it.

As a point of clarification, did you literally thrown everything in the bowl at the same time? With my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C hook, that wouldn't work very well. I'd have to stop the machine from time to time to help the process along or to get the flour/water ratio fine tuned.

Peter


Offline REMOISE

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2006, 03:53:28 PM »
HI TOO HAVE MADE THE SAME FOMULA AS YOU POSTED AND CAME OUT WITH DOUGH THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO HANDLE IT WAS TOO WET, AFETR COOKING THE PIZZA IT CAME OUT THIN CRUST BUT BECAME TOO SAGGY AFTER AWHILE.I USED THE SAME FORMULA AND USED 00 CAPUTO FLOUR.SHOULD I LESSEN THE HYDRATION ? I DID  FERMENT 24 HOURS IN THE FRIDGE AND 4 HOURS ON THE COUNTER TOP.IT WAS SO DIFFICULT TO SHAPE AND THE FINAL OUTCOME WAS WAY TOO THIN.
REMOISE

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2006, 04:25:54 PM »
I do actually dump everything in at once.  After a couple minutes the bowl is clean so I never thought it mattered.  One thing I *did* do was add a bit more flour in the later stage of mixing.  I think I probably ended up at about 59%+/-  -- it never really got the "done kneeding" look like my other formula does.  I usually take it out when it starts to look like the pillsbury doughboy...smooth.  This 60.8% hydration dough, though, seemed like it wasn't kneeding, just mixing...maybe half kneeding.

To confirm; I am using the dough hook on a KitchenAid Pro 600 on speed 2. Sometimes I go from speed 1 to speed 2 once the dough is better hydrated.  But doughs that are already high in hydration can be on speed 2 the whole time.  I also never go above speed 2 with the hook...it get's kinda freaky; especially with really dry doughs like bagels.

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2006, 04:44:04 PM »
HI TOO HAVE MADE THE SAME FOMULA AS YOU POSTED AND CAME OUT WITH DOUGH THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO HANDLE IT WAS TOO WET

If you look at those posts Peter referenced I think he says he uses just enough bench flour to get in a few folds;  also I believe they describe it as "Tacky" dough -- that is; it sticks to your fingers for a bit but your fingers pull away clean.  I too have experienced a big cracker...it is frustrating but there are a handful of factors at play which have been about beaten to death on this forum (that I'm finally starting to grasp).  It would be cool to compile a thread with "things to do with your caputo pizzeria flour" that could introduce one to the 00 lifestyle  ;).  I have found that it can be tricky to navigate through the information here on this forum with regard to 00/caputo because some of the discussion is geared toward "00 in the home oven" and some is more focused on "00 in a 900F wood burning oven."

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2006, 06:17:19 PM »
What starts out as a fairly simple and straightforward proposition is made into a much more complicated situation by people who want to use the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour in ways and in permutations for which the flour was not intended.

In Naples, most Neapolitan pizzas are same-day pizzas using dough fermented for a total of several hours at room temperature. The yeast used is usually a fresh yeast ("yeast of beer"). The only other ingredients besides the flour and yeast are water and salt. There are also a few pizzaioli--and literally only a few--who use natural preferments. In both cases, the pizzas are baked in high-temperature wood-fired Neapolitan ovens. It takes but a minute or two at most to bake the pizza.

Fast forward to the U.S. and what we find is people--home pizza makers and professionals alike--who want to use a different set of rules. They want to use other than authentic Neapolitan ovens, including commercial gas-fired ovens and even conveyor ovens, or they want to use home ovens, high-temperature grills, Green Eggs, Kamodos, or whatever. Or they want to use cold fermented versions of the Caputo dough, or a combination of room-temperature and cold fermentation. Or they want to incorporate natural and commercially leavened preferments into their doughs. Each approach comes with its own set of problems and challenges--from the formulation standpoint, dough management standpoint, and the oven standpoint. Since people come to this forum seeking help with all of these approaches, it should not come as a surprise that there is a very wide diversity of opinions and solutions, some of which might strike some as confusing and even contradictory. Complicating matters further is the fact that many people decide to freelance with their dough making, further muddying the waters as they come back looking for remedies.

So, to AF's point, there is not a single set of recommendations that applies to the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. There is a set of recommendations for each approach selected. And, to be honest, I don't think there is anyone on this forum who can provide answers for all the possibilities.

Peter

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2006, 01:36:49 AM »
I write enterprise web applications for a living.  Perhaps I can make a pizza formula database script for pizzamaking.com.  Would anyone use that?  Perhaps I should start a thread for the discussion of the formula parameters so I have a good place to start?  It would be neat to take the percentages and create a thickness factor calculator, etc...I know there are some excel ones floating around but it would be cool to integrate the idea with an actual database of formulas.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 08:44:50 AM »
AP,

I'm not completely sure I understand what you are getting at, but are you possibly thinking of something like the matrix that one of our members (now inactive) created at Reply 107 at the Lehmann thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8589.html#msg8589? In that matrix, a thickness factor is assumed (0.10, in that case) and the weights of ingredients are set forth for several pizza sizes (12"-17") with different hydration percents (60-65%). Using a range of thickness factors would, of course, magnify the data base accordingly.

As you may already know, a calculator to calculate thickness factors (TF) is quite simple. It is dough weight (DW) divided by pi (3.14) times radius (R) squared, or TF = DW/(3.14 x R x R).

Peter

« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 08:51:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline REMOISE

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2006, 08:46:02 AM »
I FOUND A GREAT SOLUTION TO HYDRATION ISSUES ON CAPUTO FLOUR.WHEN REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE LET IT REST ON THE COUNTER JUST ABOUT 2 HOURS AND SHAPE IT AND GIVE IT ANOTHER REST BEFORE COOKING BUT YOU MUST BE CAREFUL AND PUT IT ON BAKING PAPER THAT HAS BEEN FLOURED.ALSO DO NOT MAKE IT TOO THIN.JUST WHEN IT IS ON THE STONE AFETR ABOUT 2 MINUTES REMOVE PAPER BELOW BY SLIDING A METAL SPATULO UNDERNEATH AND BAKE IT AT AN INTENSE HEAT OF ABOUT 500 ON A STONE THAT HAS BEEN PREHEATED ABOUT AN HOUR.THIS IS THE SOLUTION A FOUND FOR WET DOUGH.IF YOU MAKE IT RISE ON THE COUNTER OVER 2 HOURS IT WILL BE TOO LIGHT AND WET THAT IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO SHAPE.48 HOUR FERMENTATION WORKS BEST.AND ALWAYS RESHAPE DOUGH TO A TIGHT BALL BEFORE A COUNTER RISE EITHER ON SILPAT OR WAX PAPER.THIS IS THE PRODUCT BELOW A LIGHT AND SLIGHTLY CRUNCHY CRUST AND ON THE CHEWY SIDE WITH GREAT FLAVOUR!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2006, 09:02:25 AM »
REMOISE,

Nice looking pie. Proofing the dough just before baking is a good idea, however, I try not to reshape the dough into a tight ball when put on the counter because that can disorient and rearrange the gluten structure and make the ball tough to shape thereafter (it will be very elastic). Maybe in your case, the effects aren't as pronounced because of the proofing time and the fact that the gluten content is lower when using 00 flour as opposed to other, higher-gluten flours. The parchment paper is also a good idea when working with a high-hydration dough because such a dough can easily stick to a peel if you let it rest too long, as during a proofing period such as you used.

Peter

Offline AP

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2006, 01:58:58 AM »
I'm not completely sure I understand what you are getting at

Very simple; a database of formulas.  It could even be wiki style...but I think it would be great for people to reference formulas by some sort of id rather than by thread/post id.  Just thought I'd offer it.  If anyone's interested I could build it just to play with.  I would like suggestions on formula parameters before I get into it is all...

Offline REMOISE

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Re: Caputo pizzeria hydration issues...
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2006, 02:35:45 AM »
Hi Peter,
 
thanks for your reply,I was wondering the reason why I roll out the dough and make it into a tight ball is because during fermentation in the fridge for 2 day the dough had risen and is really soft and wet.another hours on counter rise makes the dough really impossble to work with.You mentioned that by rolling the dough into a tight ball could ruin the structure? What about mishaps while shaping the dough...is it alright to just roll it into a tight ball again and make it rise in the counter in case I made a mistake? Most of us new in this is still strugling with shaping with wetter dough .Thanks

Remoise


 

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