Author Topic: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment  (Read 1001 times)

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Offline pfhlad0

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Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« on: July 18, 2014, 07:40:45 AM »
I remember seeing a version of Craig's yeast vs. temp rising table that had a mix of cold and room temperature ferment times. That is, if I want to cold ferment for part of the time and then room-temp ferment for part of the time. I can't seem to find it now. Can anyone point me to that version? Or, can you tell me how to figure out the appropriate rise times using his "standard" table?

Thanks.


Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 09:13:01 AM »
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 09:14:52 AM by Jon in Albany »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 09:26:22 AM »
The instructions for using the table with multiple temps starts here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg230690#msg230690

This will work on either the SD or baker's yeast table. I will add that the baker's yeast table seems to error on the light side in the lower (refrigerated) temperature range. You might want to up the quantity one notch over whatever it tells you if you plan on using a meaningful amount of time in the fridge.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 11:22:06 AM »
If I'm using ADY, can I use the same theory as described in the multiple-temp thread but with the numbers from the original fermenting table?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 11:25:24 AM »
If I'm using ADY, can I use the same theory as described in the multiple-temp thread but with the numbers from the original fermenting table?

The sourdough table is actually the original one, but yes, the same multiple-temp method will work on either.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 01:34:13 PM »
Thanks, Craig. One more question for you. Ideally, how much should a dough ball rise? That is, should it double in size? Triple? Something else? I'm still trying to work out the cold vs. warm ferment time and it would help to know what it should look like when it's "done".

Thanks for all of your help.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 01:36:18 PM »
It's a range that is determined by many factors not the least of which is personal preference. In general, I'd say someplace between 1.7x and 2.5x.

Like anything else, it's best to experiment and see what works best for you. AOTBE, I'd error on the side of too much rise. Maybe shoot for a bit over 2x to start.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 01:39:04 PM »
Perfect, thanks!

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 01:47:12 PM »
I know I said I had "one" more question, but I lied. :-)

Assuming I'm using a partial cold-ferment method, when I'm calculating the total ferment time of the dough balls do I include the 1-3 hours I pull them out of the fridge to get to room temp before I'm going to bake them? 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 03:33:00 PM »
I know I said I had "one" more question, but I lied. :-)

Assuming I'm using a partial cold-ferment method, when I'm calculating the total ferment time of the dough balls do I include the 1-3 hours I pull them out of the fridge to get to room temp before I'm going to bake them?

No probably not.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 09:48:26 PM »
Do I need to worry about the condensation that's accumulating on the inside of the plastic tubs holding the dough balls in the refrigerator? Not sure if that's normal behavior.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 09:54:09 PM »
I don't know, but I doubt you need to worry about it. I never use the fridge.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline kdefay

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 12:28:20 PM »
You don't need to worry about the condensation.   I cold ferment commercially and that condensation is normal and has no noticeable effect on the finished dough.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 01:21:05 PM »
In fact, you want the condensation to drip onto the dough if possible. This is a subject I discussed some time ago with member November in a series of posts starting at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12531.msg119822#msg119822 .

Peter

Offline pfhlad0

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UPDATE: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 09:28:21 AM »
Well, I made a batch of my new "test" dough. Here's what I did:

2.2 pounds Caputo 00 flour
1.7g ADY
14g salt
600 grams water

1. Dissolve the yeast in 150g of warm water. Let it sit for 3-5 minutes.
2. Pour yeast mixture, rest of water, and flour in mixer bowl.
3. Mix until combined; then let sit for 5 minutes.
4. Mix on low for 10 minutes.
5. Add salt and mix on low for 5 additional minutes.
6. Take dough out of mixing bowl and put in a different lightly oiled bowl. Cover with plastic wrap and let sit for 1 hour.
7. Lightly grease proofing vessels with olive oil.
8. Make six 260g dough balls and put into proofing containers.
9. Put proofing vessels into refrigerator for 40-42 hours.
10. Take dough balls out 2 hours before you’re ready to use them.

My family said it was the best pizza they ever ate. I'm not sure about that, but it sure was good to hear. :-)

The dough was so pliable and easy to shape! It took less than a minute to turn the blob of dough into a nice thin circle. I could have made the pizzas even larger (and thinner), but they wouldn't fit on my peel. (I'm thinking that I should either make my dough balls a bit smaller or get larger peels.) I'm wondering, though, if the pizza was too thin. We love our pizza on the thinner side, but it seems like it could have been a bit thicker, especially in the middle. The crust was OK, but still not as "fluffy" as I would have though.

If I want the pizza just a tad thicker after it's cooked, what do I do? Add more yeast? Let it rise longer in the fridge or counter? Stretch it less?

Thanks again for all of your help.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: UPDATE: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 09:42:11 AM »
The dough was so pliable and easy to shape! It took less than a minute to turn the blob of dough into a nice thin circle. I could have made the pizzas even larger (and thinner), but they wouldn't fit on my peel. (I'm thinking that I should either make my dough balls a bit smaller or get larger peels.) I'm wondering, though, if the pizza was too thin. We love our pizza on the thinner side, but it seems like it could have been a bit thicker, especially in the middle. The crust was OK, but still not as "fluffy" as I would have though.

If I want the pizza just a tad thicker after it's cooked, what do I do? Add more yeast? Let it rise longer in the fridge or counter? Stretch it less?

Thicker in the middle is a different question from thicker at the edge.

As you dough becomes more extensible, it is easier to pull it thin in the center. One way to get a thicker center is to open the ball up 80% of the way, top it (on the peel or slide the peel under after topping), and then stretch it the last 20%. This way the final 20% mostly comes from the edge (which is the thickest) and not from the center (which is the thinnest). If you open it all the way before topping, much of the diameter at the end of stretching can come at the cost of a very thin center.

Taking care and being gentle when opening are the two big keys. Here is a good video to watch:



A larger, more fluffy, rim is generally a function of higher heat though more fermentation (more time is highly preferable to using more yeast) may help. Carefully opening the dough so as to disturb the bubble structure in the rim will also help. You don't want to apply any pressure to the rim itself when forming as you see in the video above.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 10:06:43 AM »
Makes sense. I will try that for "less thin" centers.

What about thicker at the edge?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 10:12:25 AM »
A larger, more fluffy, rim is generally a function of higher heat though more fermentation (more time is highly preferable to using more yeast) may help. Carefully opening the dough so as to disturb the bubble structure in the rim will also help. You don't want to apply any pressure to the rim itself when forming as you see in the video above.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2014, 10:17:18 AM »
Do you think my yeast percentage (.17) is good? We are using a WFO so the cooking temps get pretty high.

Also, do you think I'm kneading too much (15 minutes) in KA mixer)?

I've been looking at all of the pictures of the "holey" crusts and I'm dying to get that in my pizza, too!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's rising table -- for mix of cold and warm ferment
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2014, 10:29:43 AM »
Do you think my yeast percentage (.17) is good? We are using a WFO so the cooking temps get pretty high.

Also, do you think I'm kneading too much (15 minutes) in KA mixer)?

I've been looking at all of the pictures of the "holey" crusts and I'm dying to get that in my pizza, too!

What is your bake time?

I can't say for sure on the yeast, I'm not a refrigeration guy. If you are not getting a 2X rise by the time you open the dough ball, you might want to add more.

I don't know if you are mixing too much. That is a lot more than I mix though. I only mix for maybe 2-3 minutes after all the flour is in. I don't do a rest in the mixer. I do a couple sets of stretch-and-folds with 10-15 minute rests after the mixer.

Pictures would probably help a lot.
Pizza is not bread.


 

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