Author Topic: Some Pizza making assumptions...?  (Read 1326 times)

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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2014, 10:35:16 PM »
Room temp doesn't mean whatever the temperature of the room is.  It means 60-70 degrees and all that entails.


Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2014, 10:51:38 PM »
Room temp doesn't mean whatever the temperature of the room is.  It means 60-70 degrees and all that entails.

The difficulty is establishing a consistent temperature?
Josh

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2014, 11:00:29 PM »
Yes, and being able to reliably hit the workflow points.

scott123

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2014, 05:12:28 AM »
This is what Peter is telling you and he says as much in the last sentence: "it is time more than coldness that is the key."

Okay, I'll concede that CF doesn't produce crusts that are inherently more flavorful than RT.  I am 100% certain that even though coldness inhibits enzyme activity, it inhibits it proportionately less than yeast activity, but, as you say, enzyme activity can just as easily be favored by using smaller amounts of yeast at RT.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.

What I won't concede to, though, is the concept that, in IDY/ADY settings, any chemical reaction occurs at 35 that doesn't occur at 65 (or vice versa).

Every ounce of research I've done on this, and I've done plenty, points to rate- points to speed.  No matter where I look, I can't find anything that states "x is happening at this temp, but it's not happening at that temp".  It's always, across the board, about reactions that are occurring slowly when cold and faster when warmer. Because of this, it is my firm belief that ANY IDY/ADY RT dough, can, through yeast and time adjustment, be recreated with CF, and, on the flip side, any CF dough can be cloned in a RT setting.

Once you accept the fact that both roads have the potential to take you to the exact same place, it all boils down to the ease at which each road gets you there.  Josh talked about measuring small amounts of yeast.  Tom addressed the extensive complexities of maintaining stable 60ish temps. I would also bring up the stark differences in dough readiness windows, and the far greater flexibility one has with a dough that's fermenting at a very slow rate over one that, near the time of readiness, is fermenting quite quickly. If my guests are a couple hours late, I can compensate far easier with a slow moving CF dough than I can with a faster moving RT one.

If you want to say that RT naturally leavened doughs cannot be replicated with CF, then I'll defer to your greater knowledge in that area. But for IDY/ADY, neither my research nor my tastebuds reveal any innate differences between the two temperatures.

If I'm going to the same place, I'm choosing the vehicle that gets me there with the least amount of hassle.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:18:47 AM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 05:17:34 AM »
I will freely admit that it produces a better dough

Do you really believe that? When I've seen photos of your best work, I've never said to myself "Wow, that's really beautiful, but, it could be a little better if he switched from CF to RT."  Based upon the level of success you've been able to reach, the thought is preposterous, imo.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2014, 07:17:24 AM »
What makes room temperature ferments so difficult?



For a home setting it is much easier to control the room temp. You just need the constant temp and space. In commercial settings the room temp varies widely thus you can't control the rise as easy as putting it in a fridge.  Our kitchen temps can go from 60 degrees to 85 degrees over night and to come in the next day and find the dough a mess is to high a probability to make it a consistant choice.  This is too scary for me thus we do multi day cold ferments.  Walter

Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2014, 07:55:11 AM »
What makes room temperature ferments so difficult?

For bakers yeast, I'd say my post is the main reason why it is so difficult. Add in temperature fluctuations as Walter mentioned and you are throwing darts with a blindfold on.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give a 24hr RT a shot and form my own opinion. I'm not sure I'll reply to this post since it's not really relevant to the OP's questions.
Josh

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2014, 08:53:15 AM »
Yes, and being able to reliably hit the workflow points.

I'm not trying to be deliberately dense, it just comes natural to me.  Which workflow points are more difficult to hit when fermenting at approximately 64F?

For bakers yeast, I'd say my post is the main reason why it is so difficult. Add in temperature fluctuations as Walter mentioned and you are throwing darts with a blindfold on.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give a 24hr RT a shot and form my own opinion. I'm not sure I'll reply to this post since it's not really relevant to the OP's questions.

I happen to have a jeweler's scale which I've been using for most of my dry ingredients, though none of my measurements have been weights that tiny!  I saw Craig's tip about dissolving an amount in water, and it seemed like a good one.  I wonder how much fluctuation you'd get using that method?  Also, I wonder how well tiny amounts of yeast like that disperse throughout a larger dough mass, say four dough balls' worth.  I have to go find your threads, Josh.  I've been chatting with you a lot lately, and I don't know if I have seen your pizzas!


For a home setting it is much easier to control the room temp. You just need the constant temp and space. In commercial settings the room temp varies widely thus you can't control the rise as easy as putting it in a fridge.  Our kitchen temps can go from 60 degrees to 85 degrees over night and to come in the next day and find the dough a mess is to high a probability to make it a consistant choice.  This is too scary for me thus we do multi day cold ferments.  Walter

This makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Neapolitan restaurants get around this problem?  I guess I don't know whether Neapolitan restaurants use a RT method or not, but pizza style does seem to divide this forum on this particular issue.  Maybe there is a commercial divide, too.
Josh

Offline waltertore

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2014, 09:45:24 AM »
Josh: I don't know much about Neopolitan processes but spent an afternoon with Anthony the owner of Una Pizza in SF(formerly NYC).  He uses the room temp overnight rise and said it is an ongoing challenge and at times he closes the doors the next day due to the dough not being right.  He also told me that some days the dough is great and others not so great.  It is the nature of the beast when room temp can vary. for home settings this method is no big deal.  What is the worst that can happen - you eat out or cook something else.  In commercial settings most places  use same day dough because it is very predictable or the cold fermentation because it adds more flavor and is also pretty much bullet proof consistant.  The variables that do arise with same day dough and the cold ferment will rarely cause a shop to close due to the dough not being workable.  Walter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2014, 09:46:04 AM »
What I won't concede to, though, is the concept that, in IDY/ADY settings, any chemical reaction occurs at 35 that doesn't occur at 65 (or vice versa).

I suspect that you are right that in a bakerís yeast dough, the chemical reactions are essentially the same. Iíll go so far as to say that the biochemical process is likely the same too. The main reason the yeast slow at cooler temperatures is the enzymes activity in the cells slow just like the amylase released from the flour. For the most part in yeast, the basic processes donít change, they simply slow.

What I suspect may be different is the mechanical development of the dough given the significantly stiffer structure in the cold environment. Is it really that farfetched that the gluten might develop differently in a cold environment vs. warm? We know that our manual workflow Ė such as how and how much we work the dough when it is stiff vs. relaxed Ė affects the texture and tenderness of the finished product. Why would you reject the possibility that the gluten would develop differently when stretched in a stiff (cold) environment vs. a more relaxed warm environment?

That you can't find any research that says there is a difference is not particularly interesting. What makes you think any such research has even been done?

You are right to note that this only applies to a bakerís yeast dough. SD is quite different in that temperature not only effects growth rate but also effects the bacteriaís choice of metabolic pathways and fermentation products. Temperature absolutely effects the chemical make-up of a SD dough.


Pizza is not bread.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2014, 10:01:20 AM »
Okay, I'll concede that CF doesn't produce crusts that are inherently more flavorful than RT.  I am 100% certain that even though coldness inhibits enzyme activity, it inhibits it proportionately less than yeast activity, but, as you say, enzyme activity can just as easily be favored by using smaller amounts of yeast at RT.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.

You have to go farther than that. Not only are they not inherently more flavorful, you were patently wrong when you wrote: "cold fermented traditional yeast doughs are more flavorful than warmer temp fermented traditional yeast doughs- fermented for the same amount of time." It is exactly the opposite by a factor of several fold.

You were also wrong when you wrote "water activity that drives enzyme activity." It's a matter of kinetic energy.

The whole idea that "refrigeration favors enzyme activity over yeast activity" is a logical fallacy. It's meaningless because you can independently control the fermentation time via the initial yeast quantity. SD provides an example of where temperature actually can be used to favor one thing over another: as temperature rises into the 90's the yeast activity slows dramatically while the LAB activity accelerates significantly favoring the LAB over the yeast. Unlike the CF example, you can't independently control either to compensate. You can't add more SD yeast without adding more SD bacteria whereas you can add more baker's yeast without adding more amylase. 
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2014, 10:09:19 AM »
Josh: I don't know much about Neopolitan processes but spent an afternoon with Anthony the owner of Una Pizza in SF(formerly NYC).  He uses the room temp overnight rise and said it is an ongoing challenge and at times he closes the doors the next day due to the dough not being right.  He also told me that some days the dough is great and others not so great.  It is the nature of the beast when room temp can vary. for home settings this method is no big deal.  What is the worst that can happen - you eat out or cook something else.  In commercial settings most places  use same day dough because it is very predictable or the cold fermentation because it adds more flavor and is also pretty much bullet proof consistant.  The variables that do arise with same day dough and the cold ferment will rarely cause a shop to close due to the dough not being workable.  Walter

There are ways to reduce the variability in a commercial setting - a dough room or dedicated cooler for example.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2014, 10:13:22 AM »
Room temp doesn't mean whatever the temperature of the room is.  It means 60-70 degrees and all that entails.

It certainly can mean that. That's why I built the tables. With SD, I believe 64F +/- optimizes flavor. With baker's yeast, maybe it doesn't matter.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2014, 10:24:01 AM »
There are ways to reduce the variability in a commercial setting - a dough room or dedicated cooler for example.

 I am not claiming one method over the other.  The cold ferment process is the easiest to consistently produce a good product for small pizzerias that lack space for dedicated above 40 degree dough rises of more than a few hours.  For home use I am not challenging it.  You got me curious though and I am going to make a home pizza using your room temp chart.  Our house varies in temp between 68 (a/c sleep temp) and mid 70's waking hours temps.  Walter

« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:35:48 AM by waltertore »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »
I am not claiming one method over the other.  The cold ferment process is the easiest to consistently produce a good product for small pizzerias that lack space for dedicated above 40 degree dough rises of more than a few hours.  For home use I am not challenging it.  You got me curious though and I am going to make a home pizza using your room temp chart.  Our house varies in temp between 68 (a/c sleep temp) and mid 70's waking hours temps.  Walter

PS: My home computer will not allow your chart to enlarge and won't download it.  The print is too small for me to see. I will have to wait till I get to work and print it larger.

Sometimes it takes a couple seconds to enlarge after you click on it. When it does, you should be able to right-click and save image as...

I understand you are not claiming one over the other. I was simply suggesting that if one wanted to use RT ferment in a restaurant there are ways to greatly reduce the difficulty.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 10:42:04 AM »
Sometimes it takes a couple seconds to enlarge after you click on it. When it does, you should be able to right-click and save image as...

I understand you are not claiming one over the other. I was simply suggesting that if one wanted to use RT ferment in a restaurant there are ways to greatly reduce the difficulty.

Craig:  thanks I figured it out and I understand what you are saying.  I am curious about this method because I never have tried a 24 hour rt rise for pizza dough and one never knows what comes from experiments.......  I will have to get some flour from my classroom and should have the pies made by the weekend.  My home oven is a pain to use compared to the blodgetts at work.  If the dough tastes noticably better I will definetly give this some serious thought on how to do it in our classroom. We have an 18 full sheet pan warming/proofing box that has humidity control.  The lowest I could run that at is 80 degrees but that sounds too warm to me.  Thanks!  Walter
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:46:24 AM by waltertore »

Offline Sherlock

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2014, 12:49:02 PM »
wow lots of good info here! and interesting opinions discussion. thanks for all the input

I guess I have a somewhat unrelated question but if i'm making dough for several pies, do i ball and ferment separate (assuming better choice?) or leave one big ol ball ferment and then separate at time of making???

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2014, 01:07:03 PM »
wow lots of good info here! and interesting opinions discussion. thanks for all the input

I guess I have a somewhat unrelated question but if i'm making dough for several pies, do i ball and ferment separate (assuming better choice?) or leave one big ol ball ferment and then separate at time of making???

You want to divide the dough and ball far enough in advance that the dough has time to relax or it can be very difficult to open. I would say that 2-3 hours is the absolute minimum but 6-8 hours is a lot better. 12 hours is popular. Personally, I like 24 hours in balls.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2014, 01:17:08 PM »
You want to divide the dough and ball far enough in advance that the dough has time to relax or it can be very difficult to open. I would say that 2-3 hours is the absolute minimum but 6-8 hours is a lot better. 12 hours is popular. Personally, I like 24 hours in balls.

I'll add that if you decide to cold ferment, you need to skip bulk and ball before it goes into the fridge.
Josh

Offline dsissitka

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2014, 02:54:25 PM »
I'll add that if you decide to cold ferment, you need to skip bulk and ball before it goes into the fridge.

The The New Artistan Bread in Five Minutes a Day method uses bulk fermentation, cold fermentation, and has you ball your dough just before you temper it and it's worked well for me. High hydration dough is surprisingly forgiving.


 

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