Author Topic: Some Pizza making assumptions...?  (Read 2456 times)

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Offline Sherlock

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Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« on: July 29, 2014, 10:27:18 AM »
Okay so I was originally asking recipe input, but after spending some good time reading and reading I would just like to see if what I think I learned is right, and maybe get some input.

- Generally speaking for thinner more airy crust and better development a higher gluten content is required, as well as time for the gluten to build (via *cold fermentation?).

- Fermentation time can be adjusted or affected by starting yeast? Why most of the 24 hr+ dough’s have so little yeast right?
      - Follow up so if I add more yeast the ferment time could be made shorter?

- Also cold fermentation needs to recover 1-3hrs, and so to speak turn back into dough. During this transition process you don’t mess with it, it will turn back into a ball?

- The longer the dough ages the more taste it develops (to an extent).

- Proper ball formation is important.

- A good scale is awesome.


Can I transport my dough during fermentation? Any tips/tricks to do this properly I'm guessing temp changes and shock should be avoided but careful transport in a cooler should be fine?

Is there some good guide on dough stretching (last attempt was really good, but improvement is good thing)?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:03:27 PM by Sherlock »


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 04:06:22 PM »
I once transported a couple NY style dough balls in my car from central Ohio to Chicago (Wrigleyville?), and my dough turned out just fine.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2014, 04:17:35 PM »
My opinions in RED.

- Generally speaking for thinner more airy crust and better development a higher gluten content is required - Totally false, as well as time for the gluten to build (via *cold fermentation? - No - resist the urge - don't do it. Pizza is a living, growing thing. We put things in the fridge so they don't grow.).

- Fermentation time can be adjusted or affected by starting yeast? Why most of the 24 hr+ dough’s have so little yeast right? Yes
      - Follow up so if I add more yeast the ferment time could be made shorter? But perhaps at the cost of flavor an texture

- Also cold fermentation needs to recover 1-3hrs Or better yet - never put your dough in the first place. If you do, give it at least 2 hours to temper., and so to speak turn back into dough. During this transition process you don’t mess with it, it will turn back into a ball? If you mess with it, it will tighten the gluten and be very hard to open.

- The longer the dough ages the more taste it develops (to an extent).Maybe

- Proper ball formation is important.Yes

- A good scale is awesome. It's important; it doesn't have to be expensive though.


"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2014, 04:27:01 PM »
I once transported a couple NY style dough balls in my car from central Ohio to Chicago (Wrigleyville?), and my dough turned out just fine.

I bet the seatbelting was tricky.
Josh

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 04:33:01 PM »
My opinions in RED.

- Generally speaking for thinner more airy crust and better development a higher gluten content is required - Totally false, as well as time for the gluten to build (via *cold fermentation? - No - resist the urge - don't do it. Pizza is a living, growing thing. We put things in the fridge so they don't grow.).

- Fermentation time can be adjusted or affected by starting yeast? Why most of the 24 hr+ dough’s have so little yeast right? Yes
      - Follow up so if I add more yeast the ferment time could be made shorter? But perhaps at the cost of flavor an texture

- Also cold fermentation needs to recover 1-3hrs Or better yet - never put your dough in the first place. If you do, give it at least 2 hours to temper., and so to speak turn back into dough. During this transition process you don’t mess with it, it will turn back into a ball? If you mess with it, it will tighten the gluten and be very hard to open.

- The longer the dough ages the more taste it develops (to an extent).Maybe

- Proper ball formation is important.Yes

- A good scale is awesome. It's important; it doesn't have to be expensive though.

Craig,

I'm going to have to make up a batch of NY Style dough and keep it out of the fridge to test the differences. Is it your expectation that using your yeast expectation chart that there is a sweet spot, a balance between yeast and temperature, for NY Style, and, if so, what do you think it might be? 
Josh

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2014, 04:33:56 PM »
I bet the seatbelting was tricky.

Don't remember anything like that. Smoke alarms did their best to screw everything up, though.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2014, 04:45:37 PM »
It continues to change in the refrigerator, but it is retarded growth.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2014, 04:52:23 PM »
Craig,

I'm going to have to make up a batch of NY Style dough and keep it out of the fridge to test the differences. Is it your expectation that using your yeast expectation chart that there is a sweet spot, a balance between yeast and temperature, for NY Style, and, if so, what do you think it might be?

I think the sweet spot for flavor development is around 64F and the time is 24-48 hours depending on what you want. Use yeast quantity from the table to get you there.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 05:52:34 PM »
I think the sweet spot for flavor development is around 64F and the time is 24-48 hours depending on what you want. Use yeast quantity from the table to get you there.

Craig, have you done a side-by-side comparison of a refrigerated dough and non-refrigerated dough using bakers yeast?

According to your chart ( http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398 ), at 64 degrees, you have to be so precise with the weight of your yeast that it would be really difficult to get results that match your table in real life.

For example if I applied your chart to my NY recipe to make one doughball of approximately 575 grams, I would need to use the following weights:

For 28hrs = 0.032% IDY = 0.11g
For 22hrs = 0.040% IDY = 0.14g
For 19hrs = 0.048% IDY = 0.17g

9 hours difference in only 0.06 grams of yeast!

I certainly do not have a scale this precise, and I doubt most of the members here do either. Doing the water-yeast trick would obviously mitigate this issue a good amount, but most people probably do not think this way. 

I understand why you have a strong aversion to cold fermenting doughs, but for small batch bakers yeast doughs I'm not sure it's logistically feasible for most of us to do otherwise. If the difference in flavor between a room fermented bakers yeast dough and a cold fermented dough is worth this trouble, then I'm going to give it a shot next time I make my usual NY.




 


scott123

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 05:59:06 PM »
It's impossible to fairly discuss fermentation temperatures in the (mostly) style agnostic manner in which it's being discussed here.

It's thoroughly proven that colder temps favor enzyme activity in dough and enzyme activity is responsible for generating flavor, so, generally speaking, cold fermented traditional yeast doughs are more flavorful than warmer temp fermented traditional yeast doughs- fermented for the same amount of time.

It's also been theorized that coldness might impact the texture of dough adversely, but, nothing's been proven in this regard, and, out of my own experiments with room temp and cold ferments, I haven't seen this.  Cold constricts the gluten and makes a tighter dough, but, once you let the dough warm up, the rheology appears to be identical to a dough that's never seen the inside of a fridge.

Coldness, though, doesn't seem to play well with starters.  It seems very easy to generate an excess of acid- which wreaks havoc on texture.  Craig, when you curse cold fermentation in the context of naturally fermented dough, I'm on board.  When you curse it for traditional yeast NP, sure... I don't have a horse in that race.  When you start cursing it everywhere, though, then I've got to say "oh, no."

Josh, for NY style, don't throw away your refrigerator yet. Without the refrigerator, you're not going to see the same level of enzyme activity, and, for the same amount of time, you're not going to see the same depth of flavor.

For NY, and for NY only, I've done plenty of room temp (70ish) proofs and plenty of cold ones.  Colder is always better- and far easier, imo, due to the toss it in the fridge and basically forget about it for a couple days approach, as opposed to setting up equipment to maintain a stable warmer temp.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 06:07:43 PM »
Craig, have you done a side-by-side comparison of a refrigerated dough and non-refrigerated dough using bakers yeast?

No, but I've made enough both ways to have a strong opinion that cold fermentation is sub-optimal.

Quote
According to your chart ( http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398 ), at 64 degrees, you have to be so precise with the weight of your yeast that it would be really difficult to get results that match your table in real life.

For example if I applied your chart to my NY recipe to make one doughball of approximately 575 grams, I would need to use the following weights:

For 28hrs = 0.032% IDY = 0.11g
For 22hrs = 0.040% IDY = 0.14g
For 19hrs = 0.048% IDY = 0.17g

9 hours difference in only 0.06 grams of yeast!

I certainly do not have a scale this precise, and I doubt most of the members here do either. Doing the water-yeast trick would obviously mitigate this issue a good amount, but most people probably do not think this way. 

I understand why you have a strong aversion to cold fermenting doughs, but for small batch bakers yeast doughs I'm not sure it's logistically feasible for most of us to do otherwise. If the difference in flavor between a room fermented bakers yeast dough and a cold fermented dough is worth this trouble, then I'm going to give it a shot next time I make my usual NY.

If it doesn't work for you, It doesn't work for you. You can still make really good pizza. My opinion is simply that you should only use cold fermentation is logistical reasons require it. The scenario you pose is similar.
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Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2014, 06:19:19 PM »
Thank you all for your thoughts.  I'm not throwing away any coolers, I was just curious.  This tends to be a recurring debate, and I'm always interested in the reasons for the disagreements.
Josh

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2014, 06:21:33 PM »
It's impossible to fairly discuss fermentation temperatures in the (mostly) style agnostic manner in which it's being discussed here.

Agree 100%

Quote
It's thoroughly proven that colder temps favor enzyme activity in dough and enzyme activity is responsible for generating flavor, so, generally speaking, cold fermented traditional yeast doughs are more flavorful than warmer temp fermented traditional yeast doughs- fermented for the same amount of time.

Enzyme activity is favored at refrigerator temperatures? Favored over what? Proven by whom? CF is more flavorful that RT, AOTBE? Did you move to Denver and not tell anyone?  ;)

Quote
It's also been theorized that coldness might impact the texture of dough adversely, but, nothing's been proven in this regard, and, out of my own experiments with room temp and cold ferments, I haven't seen this.  Cold constricts the gluten and makes a tighter dough, but, once you let the dough warm up, the rheology appears to be identical to a dough that's never seen the inside of a fridge.

I can't prove it, but my experience is that every sensory aspect of a dough is compromised to some extent by CF.

Quote
Coldness, though, doesn't seem to play well with starters.  It seems very easy to generate an excess of acid- which wreaks havoc on texture.  Craig, when you curse cold fermentation in the context of naturally fermented dough, I'm on board.  When you curse it for traditional yeast NP, sure... I don't have a horse in that race.  When you start cursing it everywhere, though, then I've got to say "oh, no."

In my experience, it's much worse with natural yeast systems than baker's yeast, but it more than just the acid going on - it effects the yeast too - much more than commercial yeast. I don't have a horse in any race. I don't make and sell yeast or cultures. I'm simply sharing my experience. If someone wants to listen to me, great. If they don't want to listen, that's fine too. It's their pizza.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

scott123

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2014, 06:55:27 PM »
Enzyme activity is favored at refrigerator temperatures? Favored over what? Proven by whom? CF is more flavorful that RT, AOTBE? Did you move to Denver and not tell anyone?  ;)

I don't know, did you move to Seattle? ;)

This is common knowledge in the baking community.  Yeast, as you're well aware, goes dormant as the mercury drops, and while the water activity that drives enzyme activity is decreased at lower temps, generally speaking, refrigeration favors enzyme activity over yeast activity.

You know how rarely I agree with Peter Reinhart, but, in this instance, he's 100% correct:

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/peters-blog/44-peters-blog/416-peters-blog-sept-15th-cold-fermentation.html

Quote
My belief (and remember, this is just my opinion -- no one owns the whole truth in these matters) is that the key to the value of long fermentation is the enzyme activity, in particular the alpha-amylase and beta-amylase action that slowly releases glucose, maltose, and other sugars from their starchy chains in the flour. This takes time, anywhere from 6 to 12 hours minimum, but it is not a biological fermentation since enzymes are not alive, they are simply part of the grain (protein fragments, but not living organisms, if I understand the chemistry of them properly, but then I'm no chemist). The process of sugar break-out from the starch is slower at colder temperatures but is not subject to the same rules as yeast and bacteria (which essentially go nearly dormant when they get cooler than 40 degrees F.).  Anyway, pizza makers have known for a long time, whether by accident or intentionality, that their dough balls are better tasting and more beautiful to look at when used the following day (or even over a number of days, within reason) than if used on the same day in a fast rising method. It is not only because the fermentation is better in the slow method but, I believe, because more natural sugar has been evoked from grain by the enzymes and that improves both color and flavor, as well as providing new, ongoing food for the yeast and bacterial fermentation (so, in a way, it does elicit more fermentation flavor as well as releasing sugar). Bottom line: yes, Scott, I do believe long, cold fermentation improves flavor but, I have to say this too, it is not the only way to release flavor -- that is, it is time more than coldness that is the key.

Craig, I know you don't work with malted flours all that much, but I'm certain that you've worked with enough CF malted flour doughs to be able to detect the differences in amylase activity (greater propensity for browning) than in RT malted flour doughs. This is basic stuff here.  The amylase activity is the most recognizable ezymatic impact, but other flavor providing enzymes are doing their magic as well as you bring the temperature down.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 08:52:18 PM »
This is common knowledge in the baking community.  Yeast, as you're well aware, goes dormant as the mercury drops, and while the water activity that drives enzyme activity is decreased at lower temps, generally speaking, refrigeration favors enzyme activity over yeast activity.

You know how rarely I agree with Peter Reinhart, but, in this instance, he's 100% correct:

Scott,

I think you are fundamentally misinterpreting both the science and what Peter wrote to you.

Enzymes are not motile. They rely on kinetic energy to bring them together with the substrate at a certain minimum activation energy. As the temperature of the system increases, kinetic energy increases and collisions become 1) more frequent, and 2) more energetic. As such, enzyme activity increases with temperature until thermal denaturing of the enzymes begins (well above any fermentation temperature considered here), at which point the enzyme activity rate declines.

Amylase is in the flour. The amount of yeast added doesn't change it or the reaction rate. If all we had to control fermentation time was temperature, then perhaps cold would be better. But we can control the time via the initial yeast quantity as well. Back of the envelope, Arrhenius suggests that increasing temperature from 35F to 65F increases amylase activity by >300%. As such, you would need more than 6 days in the fridge to realize the same enzyme action as 2 days at 65F. Many times here, I've written that I thought one would need 3-4 days in the fridge to develop the same flavor as 1 day at RT. I never did the calculation before, but it supports my observations.

This is what Peter is telling you and he says as much in the last sentence: "it is time more than coldness that is the key."
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2014, 09:25:35 PM »
I recall that member November talked about some of these matters so I did a search to see what he posted. What I found was Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4517.msg37892#msg37892.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2014, 09:32:25 PM »
I recall that member November talked about some of these matters so I did a search to see what he posted. What I found was Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4517.msg37892#msg37892.

Peter

Pretty much what I've said over and over.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage



Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2014, 10:15:44 PM »
Well, I am not going to read (probably re-read) all of those links, but I can tell you this from the anarchist's perspective:

I do not have the time, the equipment, or the desire to do a 24-48 hour room temp rise.  I will freely admit that it produces a better dough, but real life tells me: mow the yard, make a dough, and a soccer match, all at the same time.  The advantage for cold retarding ('cause that is what it should be called) is the widening of the window of use and ease of workflow.

It is not practical or desired for a commercial setting, but for the house, it is ideal.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:17:26 PM by Tscarborough »

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2014, 10:30:55 PM »
What makes room temperature ferments so difficult?
Josh

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2014, 10:35:16 PM »
Room temp doesn't mean whatever the temperature of the room is.  It means 60-70 degrees and all that entails.

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2014, 10:51:38 PM »
Room temp doesn't mean whatever the temperature of the room is.  It means 60-70 degrees and all that entails.

The difficulty is establishing a consistent temperature?
Josh

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2014, 11:00:29 PM »
Yes, and being able to reliably hit the workflow points.

scott123

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2014, 05:12:28 AM »
This is what Peter is telling you and he says as much in the last sentence: "it is time more than coldness that is the key."

Okay, I'll concede that CF doesn't produce crusts that are inherently more flavorful than RT.  I am 100% certain that even though coldness inhibits enzyme activity, it inhibits it proportionately less than yeast activity, but, as you say, enzyme activity can just as easily be favored by using smaller amounts of yeast at RT.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.

What I won't concede to, though, is the concept that, in IDY/ADY settings, any chemical reaction occurs at 35 that doesn't occur at 65 (or vice versa).

Every ounce of research I've done on this, and I've done plenty, points to rate- points to speed.  No matter where I look, I can't find anything that states "x is happening at this temp, but it's not happening at that temp".  It's always, across the board, about reactions that are occurring slowly when cold and faster when warmer. Because of this, it is my firm belief that ANY IDY/ADY RT dough, can, through yeast and time adjustment, be recreated with CF, and, on the flip side, any CF dough can be cloned in a RT setting.

Once you accept the fact that both roads have the potential to take you to the exact same place, it all boils down to the ease at which each road gets you there.  Josh talked about measuring small amounts of yeast.  Tom addressed the extensive complexities of maintaining stable 60ish temps. I would also bring up the stark differences in dough readiness windows, and the far greater flexibility one has with a dough that's fermenting at a very slow rate over one that, near the time of readiness, is fermenting quite quickly. If my guests are a couple hours late, I can compensate far easier with a slow moving CF dough than I can with a faster moving RT one.

If you want to say that RT naturally leavened doughs cannot be replicated with CF, then I'll defer to your greater knowledge in that area. But for IDY/ADY, neither my research nor my tastebuds reveal any innate differences between the two temperatures.

If I'm going to the same place, I'm choosing the vehicle that gets me there with the least amount of hassle.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:18:47 AM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 05:17:34 AM »
I will freely admit that it produces a better dough

Do you really believe that? When I've seen photos of your best work, I've never said to myself "Wow, that's really beautiful, but, it could be a little better if he switched from CF to RT."  Based upon the level of success you've been able to reach, the thought is preposterous, imo.