Author Topic: Some Pizza making assumptions...?  (Read 2438 times)

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Online waltertore

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2014, 07:17:24 AM »
What makes room temperature ferments so difficult?



For a home setting it is much easier to control the room temp. You just need the constant temp and space. In commercial settings the room temp varies widely thus you can't control the rise as easy as putting it in a fridge.  Our kitchen temps can go from 60 degrees to 85 degrees over night and to come in the next day and find the dough a mess is to high a probability to make it a consistant choice.  This is too scary for me thus we do multi day cold ferments.  Walter


Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2014, 07:55:11 AM »
What makes room temperature ferments so difficult?

For bakers yeast, I'd say my post is the main reason why it is so difficult. Add in temperature fluctuations as Walter mentioned and you are throwing darts with a blindfold on.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give a 24hr RT a shot and form my own opinion. I'm not sure I'll reply to this post since it's not really relevant to the OP's questions.

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2014, 08:53:15 AM »
Yes, and being able to reliably hit the workflow points.

I'm not trying to be deliberately dense, it just comes natural to me.  Which workflow points are more difficult to hit when fermenting at approximately 64F?

For bakers yeast, I'd say my post is the main reason why it is so difficult. Add in temperature fluctuations as Walter mentioned and you are throwing darts with a blindfold on.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give a 24hr RT a shot and form my own opinion. I'm not sure I'll reply to this post since it's not really relevant to the OP's questions.

I happen to have a jeweler's scale which I've been using for most of my dry ingredients, though none of my measurements have been weights that tiny!  I saw Craig's tip about dissolving an amount in water, and it seemed like a good one.  I wonder how much fluctuation you'd get using that method?  Also, I wonder how well tiny amounts of yeast like that disperse throughout a larger dough mass, say four dough balls' worth.  I have to go find your threads, Josh.  I've been chatting with you a lot lately, and I don't know if I have seen your pizzas!


For a home setting it is much easier to control the room temp. You just need the constant temp and space. In commercial settings the room temp varies widely thus you can't control the rise as easy as putting it in a fridge.  Our kitchen temps can go from 60 degrees to 85 degrees over night and to come in the next day and find the dough a mess is to high a probability to make it a consistant choice.  This is too scary for me thus we do multi day cold ferments.  Walter

This makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Neapolitan restaurants get around this problem?  I guess I don't know whether Neapolitan restaurants use a RT method or not, but pizza style does seem to divide this forum on this particular issue.  Maybe there is a commercial divide, too.
Josh

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2014, 09:45:24 AM »
Josh: I don't know much about Neopolitan processes but spent an afternoon with Anthony the owner of Una Pizza in SF(formerly NYC).  He uses the room temp overnight rise and said it is an ongoing challenge and at times he closes the doors the next day due to the dough not being right.  He also told me that some days the dough is great and others not so great.  It is the nature of the beast when room temp can vary. for home settings this method is no big deal.  What is the worst that can happen - you eat out or cook something else.  In commercial settings most places  use same day dough because it is very predictable or the cold fermentation because it adds more flavor and is also pretty much bullet proof consistant.  The variables that do arise with same day dough and the cold ferment will rarely cause a shop to close due to the dough not being workable.  Walter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2014, 09:46:04 AM »
What I won't concede to, though, is the concept that, in IDY/ADY settings, any chemical reaction occurs at 35 that doesn't occur at 65 (or vice versa).

I suspect that you are right that in a bakerís yeast dough, the chemical reactions are essentially the same. Iíll go so far as to say that the biochemical process is likely the same too. The main reason the yeast slow at cooler temperatures is the enzymes activity in the cells slow just like the amylase released from the flour. For the most part in yeast, the basic processes donít change, they simply slow.

What I suspect may be different is the mechanical development of the dough given the significantly stiffer structure in the cold environment. Is it really that farfetched that the gluten might develop differently in a cold environment vs. warm? We know that our manual workflow Ė such as how and how much we work the dough when it is stiff vs. relaxed Ė affects the texture and tenderness of the finished product. Why would you reject the possibility that the gluten would develop differently when stretched in a stiff (cold) environment vs. a more relaxed warm environment?

That you can't find any research that says there is a difference is not particularly interesting. What makes you think any such research has even been done?

You are right to note that this only applies to a bakerís yeast dough. SD is quite different in that temperature not only effects growth rate but also effects the bacteriaís choice of metabolic pathways and fermentation products. Temperature absolutely effects the chemical make-up of a SD dough.


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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2014, 10:01:20 AM »
Okay, I'll concede that CF doesn't produce crusts that are inherently more flavorful than RT.  I am 100% certain that even though coldness inhibits enzyme activity, it inhibits it proportionately less than yeast activity, but, as you say, enzyme activity can just as easily be favored by using smaller amounts of yeast at RT.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.

You have to go farther than that. Not only are they not inherently more flavorful, you were patently wrong when you wrote: "cold fermented traditional yeast doughs are more flavorful than warmer temp fermented traditional yeast doughs- fermented for the same amount of time." It is exactly the opposite by a factor of several fold.

You were also wrong when you wrote "water activity that drives enzyme activity." It's a matter of kinetic energy.

The whole idea that "refrigeration favors enzyme activity over yeast activity" is a logical fallacy. It's meaningless because you can independently control the fermentation time via the initial yeast quantity. SD provides an example of where temperature actually can be used to favor one thing over another: as temperature rises into the 90's the yeast activity slows dramatically while the LAB activity accelerates significantly favoring the LAB over the yeast. Unlike the CF example, you can't independently control either to compensate. You can't add more SD yeast without adding more SD bacteria whereas you can add more baker's yeast without adding more amylase. 
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2014, 10:09:19 AM »
Josh: I don't know much about Neopolitan processes but spent an afternoon with Anthony the owner of Una Pizza in SF(formerly NYC).  He uses the room temp overnight rise and said it is an ongoing challenge and at times he closes the doors the next day due to the dough not being right.  He also told me that some days the dough is great and others not so great.  It is the nature of the beast when room temp can vary. for home settings this method is no big deal.  What is the worst that can happen - you eat out or cook something else.  In commercial settings most places  use same day dough because it is very predictable or the cold fermentation because it adds more flavor and is also pretty much bullet proof consistant.  The variables that do arise with same day dough and the cold ferment will rarely cause a shop to close due to the dough not being workable.  Walter

There are ways to reduce the variability in a commercial setting - a dough room or dedicated cooler for example.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2014, 10:13:22 AM »
Room temp doesn't mean whatever the temperature of the room is.  It means 60-70 degrees and all that entails.

It certainly can mean that. That's why I built the tables. With SD, I believe 64F +/- optimizes flavor. With baker's yeast, maybe it doesn't matter.
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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2014, 10:24:01 AM »
There are ways to reduce the variability in a commercial setting - a dough room or dedicated cooler for example.

 I am not claiming one method over the other.  The cold ferment process is the easiest to consistently produce a good product for small pizzerias that lack space for dedicated above 40 degree dough rises of more than a few hours.  For home use I am not challenging it.  You got me curious though and I am going to make a home pizza using your room temp chart.  Our house varies in temp between 68 (a/c sleep temp) and mid 70's waking hours temps.  Walter

« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:35:48 AM by waltertore »


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »
I am not claiming one method over the other.  The cold ferment process is the easiest to consistently produce a good product for small pizzerias that lack space for dedicated above 40 degree dough rises of more than a few hours.  For home use I am not challenging it.  You got me curious though and I am going to make a home pizza using your room temp chart.  Our house varies in temp between 68 (a/c sleep temp) and mid 70's waking hours temps.  Walter

PS: My home computer will not allow your chart to enlarge and won't download it.  The print is too small for me to see. I will have to wait till I get to work and print it larger.

Sometimes it takes a couple seconds to enlarge after you click on it. When it does, you should be able to right-click and save image as...

I understand you are not claiming one over the other. I was simply suggesting that if one wanted to use RT ferment in a restaurant there are ways to greatly reduce the difficulty.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Online waltertore

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 10:42:04 AM »
Sometimes it takes a couple seconds to enlarge after you click on it. When it does, you should be able to right-click and save image as...

I understand you are not claiming one over the other. I was simply suggesting that if one wanted to use RT ferment in a restaurant there are ways to greatly reduce the difficulty.

Craig:  thanks I figured it out and I understand what you are saying.  I am curious about this method because I never have tried a 24 hour rt rise for pizza dough and one never knows what comes from experiments.......  I will have to get some flour from my classroom and should have the pies made by the weekend.  My home oven is a pain to use compared to the blodgetts at work.  If the dough tastes noticably better I will definetly give this some serious thought on how to do it in our classroom. We have an 18 full sheet pan warming/proofing box that has humidity control.  The lowest I could run that at is 80 degrees but that sounds too warm to me.  Thanks!  Walter
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:46:24 AM by waltertore »

Offline Sherlock

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2014, 12:49:02 PM »
wow lots of good info here! and interesting opinions discussion. thanks for all the input

I guess I have a somewhat unrelated question but if i'm making dough for several pies, do i ball and ferment separate (assuming better choice?) or leave one big ol ball ferment and then separate at time of making???

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2014, 01:07:03 PM »
wow lots of good info here! and interesting opinions discussion. thanks for all the input

I guess I have a somewhat unrelated question but if i'm making dough for several pies, do i ball and ferment separate (assuming better choice?) or leave one big ol ball ferment and then separate at time of making???

You want to divide the dough and ball far enough in advance that the dough has time to relax or it can be very difficult to open. I would say that 2-3 hours is the absolute minimum but 6-8 hours is a lot better. 12 hours is popular. Personally, I like 24 hours in balls.
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Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2014, 01:17:08 PM »
You want to divide the dough and ball far enough in advance that the dough has time to relax or it can be very difficult to open. I would say that 2-3 hours is the absolute minimum but 6-8 hours is a lot better. 12 hours is popular. Personally, I like 24 hours in balls.

I'll add that if you decide to cold ferment, you need to skip bulk and ball before it goes into the fridge.

Offline dsissitka

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2014, 02:54:25 PM »
I'll add that if you decide to cold ferment, you need to skip bulk and ball before it goes into the fridge.

The The New Artistan Bread in Five Minutes a Day method uses bulk fermentation, cold fermentation, and has you ball your dough just before you temper it and it's worked well for me. High hydration dough is surprisingly forgiving.

Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2014, 03:05:42 PM »
The The New Artistan Bread in Five Minutes a Day method uses bulk fermentation, cold fermentation, and has you ball your dough just before you temper it and it's worked well for me. High hydration dough is surprisingly forgiving.

The point I was trying to make is never attempt to ball a dough that has been cold fermented overnight. A bulk before tempering is fine, you're right.

Offline dsissitka

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2014, 03:28:12 PM »
The point I was trying to make is never attempt to ball a dough that has been cold fermented overnight.

That's what it does. Bulk ferment, then cold ferment, then ball, then temper. No tempering between cold fermenting and balling.


Offline JD

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2014, 03:43:51 PM »
That's what it does. Bulk ferment, then cold ferment, then ball, then temper. No tempering between cold fermenting and balling.

Okay then I don't agree  :)

I'm not sure what you consider high hydration, but for typical pizza hydrations, balling after a cold ferment is not useful and counter productive.

Bread and pizza are not treated the same. 

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2014, 04:43:49 PM »
I have never had luck bulk cold fermenting then balling.  I have only tried it a couple of times when I ran out of time to ball before sleepy time.

Offline dsissitka

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2014, 05:59:16 PM »
I think the high hydration (the book's master recipe is 75%, its pizza recipe is 68%) is what makes it possible.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2014, 06:12:13 PM »
I think the high hydration (the book's master recipe is 75%, its pizza recipe is 68%) is what makes it possible.

So doing it wrong makes it possible to do it wrong? Makes sense.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2014, 08:30:17 PM »
There is no right or wrong, Ryan, there is what works.  If it works for him, then it is "right" for him.  My doughs are in that hydration range and when I retard in bulk, the dough is not what I want.

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2014, 08:37:47 PM »
Okay then I don't agree  :)

I'm not sure what you consider high hydration, but for typical pizza hydrations, balling after a cold ferment is not useful and counter productive.

Bread and pizza are not treated the same.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2014, 11:02:07 PM »
There is no right or wrong, Ryan, there is what works.

There is no right, but there are lots of wrongs and there are lots of people who trick themselves into believing they've done something right when they haven't (or when they've done it really wrong). I see this quality quite a bit in my own posting history; particularly in the Tommy's thread. Which is a big reason why I've pretty much nailed cloning Tommy's in about 50 different ways (which I'll probably think is BS in a year or two). We all do some things wrong every time we make pizza. I even do it on purpose sometimes, because that helps me learn.

I'm not trying to be the right/wrong police, but anything with 75% hydration is either wrong or damn close to wrong. We're talking about pizza, not bread. They are very different things, and I've yet to see any baker demonstrate any real knowledge or mastery of pizza; just bakers who seem to think they know everything about pizza simply because their craft resembles this craft on the surface.

I didn't mean for either my previous post or this post to be flame bait. I just say what I really mean most of the time because none of us has time for BS (and some of us are gonna run out of time a lot sooner than we're supposed to). I'll freely acknowledge, though, that what I said in both posts is very open to being countered. Also, I'm not even sure what style we're talking about here. I assumed NY style. If so, I stand by what I said, and I'll keep standing by what I said. If we're not talking about NY style, maybe I was wrong (although I'd be very hesitant to change my mind). I'm OK with being wrong, but I'm not OK with staying wrong.

If anything I've said in this post came out sounding either hostile or arrogant, it's either because I communicated poorly or because my words were misinterpreted.
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Some Pizza making assumptions...?
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2014, 11:11:27 PM »
75% is pretty high, but it is in the range of what my doughs fall in.  This is one of the reasons I use the dough straight from the fridge; at room temp it is almost batter, the cold allows me to form and top it.

Basically, everything I do is "wrong":  I don't measure worth a damn and don't weigh anything (and when I do it is not to make the dough it is simply to give example), I barely mix it by hand, sometimes use dough that is a week or two old, use all kinds of bizarre flour, cook on screens in the WFO, hell everything I DO is wrong.  But I like my pizza, as do most who try it and that is all I care about.


 

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