Author Topic: Rising Dough  (Read 1536 times)

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Offline jcardi

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Rising Dough
« on: September 05, 2006, 09:42:03 AM »
I've been using the VPN dough recipe (Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, ADY etc. in the amounts listed) and it seems to rise too much.  I do a 2-3 hour bulk rise, then cut it to size and let it rise another few hours, then refrigerate overnight (approx. 18-24 hours) but after that it has risen again so much the balls have melded into one.  Trying to re-cut it doesn't work, it's too stringy and is difficult to work with.  Too much yeast?  Even cutting the yeast to 2 or 2 and 1/2 oz. has the same problem.  Any suggestions?   I have a wood oven.  Thanks


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2006, 10:11:22 AM »
jcardi,

I think it will help if you indicate how much ADY you used in relation to the amount of flour. Also, are you certain that you are using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour rather than the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour? If you don't know for sure, we should be able to tell if you describe the bag and what is written on it. Did you take the temperature of the water you used and the temperature of the dough after you were done making it (just before the first rise)? Do you know what the room temperature was during the two room-temperature rises?

As a generalization at this point, I would guess that your dough fermented too long. With 00 doughs, what usually governs the fermentation "window" of usability is the specific 00 flour used, the amount of yeast used, and dough temperature, which is a largely a function of the water temperature used and room temperature during the fermentation (up to the point of refrigeration in your case). Trying to find the villain is what you want to do at this point, and answering the above questions should help a lot.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 10:27:31 AM »
 HI Jcardi,
 I am unaware of the recipe you are using but you should probably stick with either the bulk fresh/same day rise or the retarded overnight rise. Although its been done, it is not a good idea to combine both. Doing things with you're current method would take some serious formulation and planning and adustments to the recipe. Especially for the fact that you are using the ADY which needs to be activated in warmer water. The warmer water creates a higher finished dough temperature well above the recommended 72-84F finished temp that should be used with retarded/refidgerated dough procedure. The amount of yeast used is also lower per weight of flour, say 0.5%.When a dough ball is properly fermented with the retarded dough procedure it may not even double in size in its retarded state.
 I would like to mention that many experts on the subject of Neopolitan pizza feel that a same day rise is the only authentic way to make neopolitan dough,and that there is no refrigeration necessary. There are many who use retarded dough for Neo pizza with fairly good results.            Goodluck, Chiguy   

Offline jcardi

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 10:42:29 AM »
Thanks.  It is pizzeria flour (printed on bag), the water temp. is +/- 100 degrees, the room temp. is +/- 80 degrees. I do not have a dough temp. but I assume it is about 85-90 degrees.  The ady vs. flour is 1.25%.  Perhaps a stupid ? but is ADY and brewers the same?  Thanks again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 10:46:33 AM »
chiguy,

I suspect that jcardi is using the dough formulation set forth at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2002.msg17656.html#msg17656. As previously noted, the instructions given by the VPN fail to state what should be done to the dough once it is made. I tried to get the missing information from the VPN via email, but did not get a response. Nonetheless, I am pretty sure that only a room-temperature fermentation is intended. However, as you noted, adjustments can be made to use cold fermentation also. Several member use a combination of both room-temperature fermentation and cold fermentation. It's all a matter of having the correct dough formulation to do this, as you noted, and using the proper dough management.

I might add that there is no reason for the finished dough temperature to be higher when using ADY. Unfortunately, many people rehydrate ADY in the entire formula water that has been heated to the temperature, about 105-115 degrees F, needed to rehydrate the ADY. This will, in fact, raise the finished dough temperature. From a finished dough temperature standpoint, the better approach is to use only a small amount of the total formula water (warm) to rehydrate the ADY and keep the rest of the formula water cool.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 11:10:06 AM »
jcardi,

I posted a reply to chiguy's post before seeing your last reply. But now that I see your last reply, I am pretty certain that the dough you made fermented too long--because of using too much yeast (more on this below) and a finished dough temperature that was too high, because of a water temperature that was too high, combined with a high room temperature during the two room-temperature fermentations.

Fresh (brewer's) yeast is not the same as ADY. Fresh yeast is a "wet" yeast that is already hydrated, and ADY is a "dry" yeast that requires rehydration. To convert from fresh yeast to ADY, you use one-half of the amount of fresh yeast, by weight. In your case, you should have used half the amount of ADY you used. It sounds like you rehydrated the ADY in all-warm water. This alone would have materially increased the finished dough temperature. A useful factoid to keep in mind about finished dough temperature is that for every 15 degrees F increase in finished dough temperature, up to 100 degrees F, the rate of fermentation doubles. I think that you can see that, in your case, the combination of using too much yeast and warm water caused your dough to ferment much too fast. It's hard to say for sure, but your dough may have fermented too much even before you put it into the refrigerator. The dough continued to ferment beyond that point but at a slower rate.

chiguy makes a good point about deciding whether you want to use a room-temperature fermentation or a cold fermentation. The same dough formulation using room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation will not behave the same way in those two cases. For best results, each approach requires its own unique dough formulation and dough management, and "mix and match" doesn't work particularly well, if at all. You will have to decide what approach you want and use the correct dough formulation to begin with or adapt an existing dough formulation to accommodate the results you are after.

Peter

Offline jcardi

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 12:35:06 PM »
Thanks, your input has been a great help. It looks like I've got some experimenting to do!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising Dough
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2006, 05:29:18 PM »
jcardi,

To test out the new dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html for a Neapolitan style dough, I ran the VPN numbers through the calculator to see what ingredients and their quantities would be needed for a single dough ball for an 11” pizza. Using 0.095 for the thickness factor and the set of baker’s percents for an ADY version of the VPN dough formulation (using 0.625% ADY), I got the following:

Flour: Caputo Pizzeria (100%):           158.16 g  |  5.58 oz | 0.35 lbs
Water (58.7%):                                   92.84 g  |  3.27 oz | 0.2 lbs
Oil (0%):                                              0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):                                         3.95 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
ADY (0.625%):                                     0.99 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.26 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Sugar (0%):                                         0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (161.825%):                                255.95 g | 9.03 oz | 0.56 lbs | TF = 0.095

If you’d like, you can use the dough calculator to change pizza size and numbers of dough balls and get a new set of numbers.

Peter


 

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