Author Topic: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article  (Read 3212 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2014, 12:08:34 PM »
:o

Tony Gemignani for Neapolitan training?!?!  I'm definitely not a card carrying member of the Anthony Mangieri fan club, but I would think he could run circles around Tony. I would be hard pressed to think of any well known pizzeria owner that knew less about Neapolitan pizza than Tony.  You've seen this thread, right?:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23630.msg239977

This could be the worst Neapolitan pizza this forum has ever seen! And Tony's part owner!  Sure, he's probably just collecting a paycheck, and has nothing to do with the day to day, but it's still his name on the proverbial door.  Anyone that puts his name on a pizza of that caliber has no place whatsoever teaching Neapolitan pizza.

First and foremost, Iíve tried the Margherita at both Tonyís Pizzeria Napoletana (ďTPNĒ) and Una Pizzeria Napoletana (ďUPNĒ), and TPN was better by a considerable margin. There was nothing wrong with either pie. Both were high quality pizza. The short course is that UPNís crust was tougher (donít read this to mean tough), a bit bready, and not as well balanced (too acidic for my taste in pizza). TPN had the single best crust Iíve ever tasted that did not come from my oven. I think that is saying something given that UPN was good enough that I spent a couple months working to reverse engineer it (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.0). I would also add that neither Tony nor Anthony made my pies, so the element of training also comes into my calculus.

I have no direct knowledge of how Tony makes his dough, but I know a fair bit about UPN, and the simple fact of the matter is that I donít think his method is the best for Neapolitan pizza. Bread, maybe, but pizza? No. Pizza is not bread. If you doubt how serious and confident I am about this belief, consider that I have never Ė not even one time Ė tried my UPN formula above in my WFO. IMO, the chemistry inherent in his method is not optimal for NP.

With respect to ReNapoli, AFAIK, thatís Bruno DiFabioís pizza not Tonyís. I would also note that a quick Google search will turn up pictures of badly burned UPN pies (though interestingly I also did a quick search of Tonyís and didnít see any burned ones).

For the record, I've never met either Tony or Anthony, and I have complete respect for both.
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Offline vandev

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2014, 12:21:41 PM »
First and foremost, Iíve tried the Margherita at both Tonyís Pizzeria Napoletana (ďTPNĒ) and Una Pizzeria Napoletana (ďUPNĒ), and TPN was better by a considerable margin. There was nothing wrong with either pie. Both were high quality pizza. The short course is that UPNís crust was tougher (donít read this to mean tough), a bit bready, and not as well balanced (too acidic for my taste in pizza). TPN had the single best crust Iíve ever tasted that did not come from my oven. I think that is saying something given that UPN was good enough that I spent a couple months working to reverse engineer it (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.0). I would also add that neither Tony nor Anthony made my pies, so the element of training also comes into my calculus.

I have no direct knowledge of how Tony makes his dough, but I know a fair bit about UPN, and the simple fact of the matter is that I donít think his method is the best for Neapolitan pizza. Bread, maybe, but pizza? No. Pizza is not bread. If you doubt how serious and confident I am about this belief, consider that I have never Ė not even one time Ė tried my UPN formula above in my WFO. IMO, the chemistry inherent in his method is not optimal for NP.

With respect to ReNapoli, AFAIK, thatís Bruno DiFabioís pizza not Tonyís. I would also note that a quick Google search will turn up pictures of badly burned UPN pies (though interestingly I also did a quick search of Tonyís and didnít see any burned ones).

For the record, I've never met either Tony or Anthony, and I have complete respect for both.

You sure you didn't have a past life as a type rope walker ....   :-D

Offline wheelman

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2014, 12:24:04 PM »
"I would also add that neither Tony nor Anthony made my pies"
I thought Anthony made every UPN pie ever?  I still wish you would make a batch of your UPN RE dough in the modern time frame (post garage). 
bill

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2014, 12:24:33 PM »
You sure you didn't have a past life as a type rope walker ....   :-D

How so? I'm calling is as I see it.
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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2014, 12:26:52 PM »
"I would also add that neither Tony nor Anthony made my pies"
I thought Anthony made every UPN pie ever?  I still wish you would make a batch of your UPN RE dough in the modern time frame (post garage). 
bill

Nope, and if he was there, I never saw him. This was in NYC close enough to the time he closed that he could have been in SF looking for a location.

I probably should make a batch for scientific research. I may have a good opportunity coming up.
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Offline vandev

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2014, 12:41:49 PM »
How so? I'm calling is as I see it.

Im kidding with you...  Although i would favor Anthony's by reason of look, standing behind what you do and personal passion ....  he is the only one prepping, making and cooking your dinner...  Who does this today....  I have to admit that i really don't care for the look of tony's Neopolitan pies... but thats not to mean in anyway they are not delicious .... ;D  I mean i am an guy for gods sake..  I have enjoyed dominos pizza and pabst blue ribbon beer before when i was hungry and was offered to me....   :-D

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2014, 12:49:47 PM »
TPN had the single best crust Iíve ever tasted that did not come from my oven.

Tony uses a for Neapolitan dough.

Here's a quote from Anthony (bold mine):

Quote
Nobody makes dough like I do. Itís just flourĖitís got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally... ...Once I make it, I keep it going for about two days, never in a refrigerator."

So... first of all, the 'single best' non garage crust you've ever had utilized refrigerated dough?!  :)

Secondly, you're going to point aspiring students towards a guy that refrigerates baker's yeast dough OVER a guy that never refrigerates naturally leavened dough?

This was in NYC close enough to the time he closed that he could have been in SF looking for a location.

That was 4 years ago.  Do you think it's at all possible that he's learned a thing or two about natural leavening during that time?  All due respect, how much did you know you about starters back then? :)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 12:52:02 PM by scott123 »

Offline vandev

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2014, 12:59:00 PM »
 ;D  Yea... Its poring rain here today so i have nothing better to do.. :-D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 01:00:54 PM by vandev »

scott123

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2014, 01:12:59 PM »
With respect to ReNapoli, AFAIK, thatís Bruno DiFabioís pizza not Tonyís. I would also note that a quick Google search will turn up pictures of badly burned UPN pies (though interestingly I also did a quick search of Tonyís and didnít see any burned ones).

I did a quick search as well, and this was front and center:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/07/tony-gemignani-tonys-pizza-napoletana-pizzeria-north-beach-san-francisco-sf-ca-review.html

That's Tony's "World Championship" winning 'Neapolitan' pizza. The photo is below.

As far as Tony's affiliation with Renapoli goes, he's not listed on the website now as an owner, but at the time of polishpizza's review, he was.  I remember reading his profile like it was yesterday.

Not that it matters, though. The Renapoli pie and Tony's "World Championship" pie match up well enough.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 01:24:40 PM by scott123 »


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2014, 01:34:20 PM »
I guess Tony figures that if Dom can get away with it....so can he.     All about the hype man!  ::)
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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2014, 02:21:54 PM »
Tony uses a for Neapolitan dough.

Here's a quote from Anthony (bold mine):

So... first of all, the 'single best' non garage crust you've ever had utilized refrigerated dough?!  :)

Secondly, you're going to point aspiring students towards a guy that refrigerates baker's yeast dough OVER a guy that never refrigerates naturally leavened dough?

That was 4 years ago.  Do you think it's at all possible that he's learned a thing or two about natural leavening during that time?  All due respect, how much did you know you about starters back then? :)

Despite these very good points, I'm going to stick with my position, and I'm going to stress that as I noted in my original post, I'm not recommending that anyone go to either for lessons.

Yep, as ironic as it is, the single best non-garage crust I've ever had apparently was made with refrigerated dough. I guess I'm going to have to re-think my theory that cold may affect the mechanical development of baker's yeast dough. It is what it is. Of course, that also means the best crust I've ever had was RT  ;D. I didn't know much of anything about his dough before watching that video. 1.1% salt surprises me a bit. He says other things in there that I don't agree with as well, FWIW.

Also note that I wrote "the single best crust I've ever tasted that did not come from my oven," not "the single best pizza I've ever tasted that did not come from my oven." That distinction goes to Luzzo's (perhaps equally ironic though as they have a coal oven." (n.b. the second time I ate there was good, but not anywhere near as good as the first).

Quote
You're going to point aspiring students towards a guy that refrigerates baker's yeast dough OVER a guy that never refrigerates naturally leavened dough?

Again, I'm not pointing anyone towards anything. But between the direct method and 25% leavin, I got to go with what I believe is better method. UPN pizza is a bit bready, and I have to believe this is a big part of the reason.

Has his method changed much since I was there? I doubt it. He says as much doesn't he? Marlon took the picture below two years ago at UPNSF. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11868.msg193452#msg193452 That's bready NP. You're right that I didn't know much about starters back then. The Exif on the pics I took said 4/23/09 - so about a month before I joined here. I'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion. Maybe if we were having this discussion back then it would be relevant. I had taste buds back then.  ;)


"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2014, 02:32:16 PM »
I did a quick search as well, and this was front and center:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/07/tony-gemignani-tonys-pizza-napoletana-pizzeria-north-beach-san-francisco-sf-ca-review.html

That's Tony's "World Championship" winning 'Neapolitan' pizza. The photo is below.

Ya, that's isn't pretty. What did you search for? I searched "Tony's pizzeria napoletana," and that picture doesn't come up in the first few hundred pictures or I missed it, though looking again I do see a cropped version of it.

As far as Tony's affiliation with Renapoli goes, he's not listed on the website now as an owner, but at the time of polishpizza's review, he was.  I remember reading his profile like it was yesterday.

Not that it matters, though. The Renapoli pie and Tony's "World Championship" pie match up well enough.
[/quote]

These are the pies I had at Tony's and UPN:
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2014, 02:37:08 PM »
Yours look better....now can we jus get on with the throw down already?   ;D
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2014, 03:34:31 PM »
These are the pies I had at Tony's and UPN:

That Ton'y pie shows no sign of being cold fermented in my opinion.  Cold Fermentation + Neapolitan = a very distinct look, that pie has none of the look.
-Jeff

Offline fagilia

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2014, 03:43:56 PM »
I just realized there are so many good looking crusts at this forum compared to alot i see on the internet. Good for us  ;D
And its not just because we make few its nice since the 100th pizza i made today was the nicest because i knew and understod the batch better and better through the evening.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2014, 03:45:26 PM »
Is this pie cold fermented?
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2014, 03:57:54 PM »
My gut says no, but from the look of the cheese I don't think the oven was very hot so with that I will say yes it was.  Curious to hear the answer though.
-Jeff


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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2014, 04:05:16 PM »
My gut says no, but from the look of the cheese I don't think the oven was very hot so with that I will say yes it was.  Curious to hear the answer though.
Jconk mobile refrigerated cake yeast dough.  8)
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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2014, 04:06:43 PM »
Is this pie cold fermented?

I'll play. I say yes.
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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2014, 04:07:57 PM »
You gave it up too quick.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2014, 04:13:02 PM »
Dang, you guys are too good...I may as well stop before I even get started on this SD thing. I`ll never be able to sneak in a ringer/fake!   ;D
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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2014, 04:15:17 PM »
Jconk mobile refrigerated cake yeast dough.  8)

I thought it might be. His pies have a distinctive look.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2014, 04:44:24 PM »
I thought it might be. His pies have a distinctive look.
As do yours  8)  all of the big guns pies here have a recognition stamp, if you will, and it`s amazing the amount of intricacies a couple ingredients on top of a piece of dough can create. It`s what I`m studying now...what causes what, how and why.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2014, 04:50:19 PM »
As do yours  8)  all of the big guns pies here have a recognition stamp, if you will, and it`s amazing the amount of intricacies a couple ingredients on top of a piece of dough can create. It`s what I`m studying now...what causes what, how and why.

You are writing a lot of things I agree with lately. I'm not exactly sure what that means.  ;)
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scott123

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Re: UPN Revisited; Interesting Article
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2014, 05:13:49 PM »
Despite these very good points, I'm going to stick with my position, and I'm going to stress that as I noted in my original post, I'm not recommending that anyone go to either for lessons.

If you're really saying 'don't go to either,' period, then we're on the same page. The whole "if you're dead set on paying for training" qualified Tony endorsement, though- that I have an issue with.

I'm curious, for those 'dead set on paying' why does it have to be either Mangieri or Gemignani?  I'm not sure if your schedule can allow it yet, but, if you're not available, there's others. Just look around.  Matthew has to be close to being in a position to do paid training. I'm sure Omid is ready to start taking on students, if approached.  Andre's probably pretty busy still, but things have to calm down for him eventually.  Larry? Marco?  And that's just off the top of my head.

Everyone I've mentioned would be better than Anthony or Tony. Most importantly, though, none of these teachers would ever delegate the teaching to an underling, like you find with Roberto (and I'm 100% certain you'd find with Tony as well).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 05:23:09 PM by scott123 »


 

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