Author Topic: proofing before dressing  (Read 590 times)

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Offline sallam

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proofing before dressing
« on: August 01, 2014, 06:36:05 PM »
Greetings
I'm interested in trying the technique mentioned by Pete-zza here:
Quote
formed skin is allowed to proof/rise before dressing
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559..

which was also recommended by the dough doctor when he said..
Quote
This takes us to the need to proof the dough, or allow it to rise in the pan for a period of time before dressing and baking the pizza. But now this brings us to another dilemma: once the dough is proofed in the pan, it must be used within a relatively short period of time or the dough can over proof and collapse under the weight of the toppings.
http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/2012-december-dough-doctor/

My question is: how can the proofed dough in the pan withstand the weight of the toppings? Actually I use 18-inch trays, not pans, but my pizzas are thick (the dough weights 2.14kg for 2 pizzas). Will that be successful in such trays?
I imagine if only I spread the sauce it might collapse. And if it didn't, it probably would when I add heavier stuff like vegetables.
Does anyone really use this technique successfully without causing the dough to collapse?
What's your secret?

Or must I par-bake before dressing the pizzas? I don't store them, I only make them for my family and we eat them right out of the oven.
I'm a home baker.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 07:18:42 PM »
Sounds like some very filling pies dude.  :chef:

2 1/2lbs dough per 18in. pizza?   ???
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 10:05:18 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »
sallam,

What hydration are you using for the dough that you place in your 18Ē trays?

Norma
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Offline sallam

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 04:17:29 AM »
What hydration are you using for the dough that you place in your 18” trays?
60%
I'm a home baker.

Offline norma427

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 09:10:26 AM »
60%

sallam,

If you dough is only 60% hydration you should not have too many problems with applying sauce and veggies after the dough is proofed.  What have you tried so far that doesn't work for you?

I only referencing this thread of mine to show some different ways to apply the sauce for a pan pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18281.0

When I make Detroit style pizzas, which is a much higher hydration dough, I do add veggies as can be seen at  Reply 2066 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg299291#msg299291 and other places on the same thread.  I just add stripes of sauce last to that type of pizza that is proofed in the pan first. 

Sauce also can be applied in dollops if you are worried about messing up your dough.

There also are other threads by members that show how to apply sauce and veggies on proofed dough in pans on the Sicilian Style board.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=29.0

Norma 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 09:13:53 AM by norma427 »
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Offline charbo

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 11:20:13 AM »
When I do this, the sauce and toppings don't collapse the risen dough, but the dough under the toppings sinks a little in the oven.  However, I don't use a high-protein flour.

There is another technique where you stretch the dough on the pan, add all the non-sauce items, then let the dough rise under and around the toppings.  If you want sauce, add it on top just before baking.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 11:43:02 AM »
Does anyone really use this technique successfully without causing the dough to collapse?

Pizza Hut pan pizza is done that way, as is their "hand-tossed traditional" style (if they even still offer it). Lots of other places also allow dough to proof in a pan, then top and bake. No one [who intends to stay in business] parbakes.

Offline sallam

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 04:16:11 PM »
If you dough is only 60% hydration you should not have too many problems with applying sauce and veggies after the dough is proofed.  What have you tried so far that doesn't work for you?
I didn't try it yet. I'll do in a few days. I thought I'd benefit from your experience. Thanks for encouraging me. And thanks for the useful tips in your links.

I'm a home baker.

Offline sallam

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 04:18:58 PM »
If you want sauce, add it on top just before baking.
Thanks for that tip.
I'm a home baker.

Offline sallam

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 04:26:15 PM »
No one [who intends to stay in business] parbakes.
Why? in what way does parbaking affect the pizza?
Do you mean skins that were parbaked then refrigirated for later use?
What if I parbake then immediately dress and put back in the oven?
I'm a home baker.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2014, 04:46:51 PM »
Why? in what way does parbaking affect the pizza?
Do you mean skins that were parbaked then refrigirated for later use?
What if I parbake then immediately dress and put back in the oven?
logistics will kill you if you run a busy shop I would think.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2014, 06:59:07 PM »
Why? in what way does parbaking affect the pizza?
Do you mean skins that were parbaked then refrigirated for later use?
What if I parbake then immediately dress and put back in the oven?
  • Every extra step you add to the pizzamaking process creates more work. More work = higher labor costs = higher cost of doing business. For no reason.
  • If you parbake, then dress, then bake again, you've damn near doubled (if not actually doubled) the work it takes to make each pizza, as well as used more gas/electricity, because this has to be done when the pizzeria is not open for business. Does the menu price double? No.
  • There is no style of pizza that requires parbaking of the skins to improve the pizza. If parbaking is not necessary, then why do it?
  • The only thing parbaking really does, in terms of pizza quality, is make inexperienced pizzamakers think they figured out how to make a laminated crust. But it's not the same thing, nor is it even close.
  • Inefficiency costs money. Every little thing a pizzeria does inefficiently costs the pizzeria money. There is not much room for inefficiency in the pizza business, which is precisely why most independent pizzerias are constantly bought and sold.
  • Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice efficiency for quality in the pizza business, but only if the increase in quality commands a price that more than makes up for the cost of being inefficient. Parbaking does not command a higher price. In fact, it probably commands a lower price.
  • Not only does parbaking create more work, but it also makes the work more difficult. Do you know how difficult it is to efficiently apply sauce evenly to a lumpy parbaked skin? That's maybe 30 extra seconds for each pizza, which costs money because at some point that one simple act of inefficiency creates the need for more labor than would be needed if only it didn't take 30 extra seconds to sauce each skin.
  • Parbaking is just like opening a pizzeria in a 4,000 square foot space when you will never need more than 2,000. It costs double, for no reason other than someone made a bad business decision.
  • Anyone who knows anything about anything wouldn't work at a place that forces them to do twice as much work as what should be necessary. Which means any place that parbakes also has stupid workers; crappy workers.
It all snowballs from there.

I could probably come up with a lot more reasons for why parbaking is not done in successful pizzerias.

Parbaking could probably be done in a large operation with a commissary, but any pizzeria [chain] that needs a commissary has most likely already sacrificed a lot of quality just to become big enough to need a commissary. And I think most of us here are shooting for quality. Still, I can't think of any pizza chain that parbakes their crust.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2014, 07:06:24 PM »
I would never par bake a 2 and a half pound pizza crust.
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scott123

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2014, 07:14:21 PM »
Why? in what way does parbaking affect the pizza?

During baking, steams rises through the dough and helps to bubble the cheese.   When you parbake, this steam is cooked away before adding the cheese, so, once you do add the cheese, it never melts properly.

Offline parallei

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2014, 07:18:50 PM »
Why? in what way does parbaking affect the pizza?
Do you mean skins that were parbaked then refrigirated for later use?
What if I parbake then immediately dress and put back in the oven?

Sallam,

Like me you are baking at home.  You said, "I don't store them, I only make them for my family and we eat them right out of the oven."

Parbaking the thick style pizza you are making and then topping it and putting it back in the oven to finish the bake works fine.  I've made many Pizza al Taglio (it is also a thicker pizza) with various ragu type toppings where I did this very thing.  The toppings were heavy, and I also didn't want the ragu's to dry out over a 20 minute bake.

It will work fine.  You might find it helpful to put a bit of sauce or oil on the pie when you do the parbake.  I think it helps with not having the dough "over spring" or dry out.  If I'm doing an 18 to 20 minute bake, I'll do the parbake for 8 or 9 minutes.

As Norma pointed out, the Sicilian Style board, particularly the pizzarium threads, mention this method.

Have fun!


Offline parallei

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2014, 07:21:13 PM »
I would never par bake a 2 and a half pound pizza crust.

His TF is about .15.  It will work fine.
During baking, steams rises through the dough and helps to bubble the cheese.   When you parbake, this steam is cooked away before adding the cheese, so, once you do add the cheese, it never melts properly.

It works fine.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2014, 07:28:45 PM »
I guess 2 1/2lbs. dough is not too terribly much for this style on an 18in. tray....sorry Sallam.  :-[
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Offline sallam

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2014, 09:30:58 PM »
Like me you are baking at home.
...........
Parbaking the thick style pizza you are making and then topping it and putting it back in the oven to finish the bake works fine.
Yes, I bake at home. Thanks for noticing, and thanks for the encouragement.
My gas oven reaches 500f, so it takes me 8 minutes to bake my pizzas (after preheating for 30 min.), 6 min. in the tray, plus 2 min without the tray to get a crunchy bottom.
I guess I can parbake during preheating, say after 20 min, for 3-4 minutes just to kill the yeast and freeze the dough while its nice and high.

In this article by the dough doctor, he too recommends parbaking for thick crust pizzas:
Quote
If a par-baked crust ever had a place where it excelled, this would be it. I canít think of a better application for a par-baked crust than in making thick crust/deep-dish pizza. The biggest problem in making thick-crust pizza is the need to proof the dough, allowing it to rise and develop a light, tender eating characteristic, which should be your ultimate goal.
http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/dough-doctor-thick-crust-par-fect/

My thick pizzas are light and tender already, because I use the water roux technique, which is great for thick pizzas. It also prevents left overs from drying out. But I'm excited to try proofing before dressing, parbaked or not, to add more volume and openness.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 09:33:41 PM by sallam »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2014, 09:52:47 PM »
Water roux technique?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sallam

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Re: proofing before dressing
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2014, 10:14:33 PM »
Water roux technique?
Yes, its a technique Chinese bakers use, and call it "tangzhong". In my recipe I take 100g flour, mix it with 500g water in a pan over medium heat until it becomes thick, turn off heat and pour the rest of the recipe's water (300g in my case) on top, and let it cool a bit, mix, then pour over the rest of the flour (1200g in my case) for mixing as usual. That technique allows the dough to absorb more hydration (you can use 67% or more hydration, without the dough getting sticky), and gives thick pizzas a nice light and tender characteristic.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:18:21 PM by sallam »
I'm a home baker.


 

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