Author Topic: Best Yet  (Read 11483 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2007, 06:56:59 PM »
It seems that for my methods and tastes, that around 62% is optimal.

Now you're catching on.  I use 61.8% almost exclusively.

- red.november


Offline 2112

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2007, 12:08:16 PM »
Bill,

Your pies look fantastic!! Is there a particular temp that you proof at for that 5 hr. period?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 12:51:32 PM by 2112 »
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2007, 04:08:02 PM »
Bill,

Is there a particular temp that you proof at for that 5 hr. period?


Room temp (~65F-69F)

Offline abatardi

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2007, 07:29:39 PM »
Bill, this is with Caputo Pizzeria flour?

- aba
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2007, 07:31:39 PM »
Bill, this is with Caputo Pizzeria flour?

- aba

Yes, Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, Camaldoli starter, purified water, Sea salt

Offline abatardi

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2007, 10:38:13 PM »
Okay and assuming your starter is 100% hydration?  Is this factored in to the 62%?

- Aaron
Make me a bicycle CLOWN!

Offline shango

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2007, 10:43:50 PM »
Zandonntoni, To much starter.  Try a tiny little fraction of what you are currently using. Your dough is overdeveloped before you even roll the balls.

Bill/sfnm, Lolita is gorgeous!

Anyone interested,  a month ago I would have said 65% hydro.  Now, I too say, "62%".

Neco, You are a truck driver.

-E

p.s.

And you, stop spying.
 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 10:53:18 PM by shango »
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2007, 11:56:01 PM »
Okay and assuming your starter is 100% hydration?  Is this factored in to the 62%?

- Aaron
Aaron,

Starter is 85% hydrated; water and flour in the starter are included in the calculation for total hydration.

Offline zandonatti

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2007, 06:32:46 AM »
Zandonntoni, To much starter.  Try a tiny little fraction of what you are currently using. Your dough is overdeveloped before you even roll the balls.
 

Shango (and Bill),

  I think you are right about the starter.  I am following Bill's notes and using the starter percentage listed, but I think I may have a hyperactive (or overachieving) starter.  I am using the Camoldi yeast from sourdo.com, and it is now about 3 months old.  But yesterday, I took it out of the fridge afternot touching (feeding) it for 2 weeks, stirred it, and used it, without feeding it first.  After this, I fed it, and within about an hour it had shot up to thee top of the jar.   What happened with the dough is what has happened before: I did a room-temp rise for 5 hours, at the end of which the dough was again overdeveloped.  It cooked up fine, although the crumb was mediocre, ditto flavor.

   So now I will experiment with using a lot less starter.  Any guesses as to what percentage I should use?

  Anyone else have this problem?  My starter typically has the consistency of a thick pancake batter.  Perhaps I have too little or too much hydration?

  -Zandonatti

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2007, 08:55:05 AM »
The Problem with Wetter Dough

I was discussing the "Less is More" post in a private message with a list member and I brought up an issue that I refrained from bringing up here, mainly because I want to investigate it in more detail. It is very possible I may end up raising the hydration again if I can figure this out.

I made a bunch of dough batches from 60% - 68% hydration (the highest I could get and still be able to unload the dough off the peel which wasn't easy with the wettest ones).  Much is discussed about the challenge in this style of pizza of making sure that the crust and toppings are done at the same time. But I don’t think I’ve seen much mentioned about making sure the edge of the pie and the center of the pie are done at the same time. I was able to achieve spectacular edges with higher hydrations, but the center was undercooked, probably because the increased hydration and the thermal protection of the toppings trapped the steam in the dough and required more time in the oven. This may simply be a temperature management issue, maybe even a dough shaping issue, but I need to play around with this a lot more. In the meantime, the pies I made on Monday were my best yet. Much of the enjoyment of these pies was due to the preferment.

Bill/SFNM


Offline scpizza

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2007, 12:41:30 PM »
I've been questioning the "wetter is better" philosophy myself, also experimenting in the 60%-68% range.

I haven't noticed any outer vs. inner cooking problems with my wet doughs.  Instead my beef is with the dough handling which is such an enormous burden with the wet doughs.  I've been doing batches at 60% and not noticing much difference in crust texture compared to 68%.  Perhaps some A/B testing and pictures are in order here.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2007, 03:10:42 PM »

I haven't noticed any outer vs. inner cooking problems with my wet doughs. 


scpizza,

Do you have voids in your dough in the center portion of your wettest doughs? I am trying to achieve voids throughout the crust - of course not nearly as big as you approach the center.

Bill/SFNM

Offline scpizza

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2007, 03:37:59 PM »
Oh, interesting point.  I have far fewer voids in the middle of the dough than I would like.  I had been thinking that this was a problem with my dough stretching technique.  Had not thought hydration might be playing a role in that. 

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2007, 07:22:02 PM »
scpizza,

Certainly dough handling including shaping has something to do with this, but I'm suspecting that there is another factor at work. The low dome of a proper Neapolitan oven may be radiating down enough heat to create steam/voids in the dough beneath the toppings. One of the tricks I sometimes use to ensure the toppings are adequately cooked at the same time as the crust is to raise the pie to the ceiling before removing the pie. By this time the structure of the dough is set preventing voids from being formed.

If I place a piece of formed dough in the oven without toppings, the entire pie puffs up.

I have a solution to this I will try one of these days and will report back here.

Bill/SFNM

Offline zandonatti

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2007, 08:29:41 PM »
My experience, where a hyperactive starter caused VERY different results, even though following all aspects of the recipe, makes me wonder whether so many of the variations and so much of the unpredictability has to do with the vigor of the starter.

After all, it seems we can precisely control every aspect of the recipe: hydration, flour, salt, etc.  But the starter seems to be this "black box" that could be having much more effect than anyone can fathom.

I may be showing my rookie status here, but  using a starter that causes over-risen dough while a similarly-composed starter does not, makes me think there may be something to this.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2007, 08:47:05 AM »

After all, it seems we can precisely control every aspect of the recipe: hydration, flour, salt, etc.  But the starter seems to be this "black box" that could be having much more effect than anyone can fathom.


My recent experience with my starters is entirely predictable. I now know when they are at their maximum activity and can pretty much predict how much time a given starter % will take to ferment and proof at room temperature. For me, at this point, the heat distribution in the oven is the hardest to control. The pizza is being briefly blasted by intense heat from the deck, the surrounding air, the coals, flames, and the ceiling. The trick is to get all of these in balance so that all parts of the pie - bottom, edge, center, toppings - are done to perfection. At these high temps, the time window for each of these is very small. I am getting better at controlling my Non-Neapolitan oven to achieve this, but still have a long way to go.

Bill/SFNM


Offline 2112

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2007, 01:33:28 PM »

Folks,

Please bear with me on this, I know it may be a little long winded and may not have been the need too but I would like to fully understand this relationship between hydration and the starter. In particular, I will reference a few quotes from this thread.

Quote
-   You need to be mindful of your starter hydration and factor that in so your overall hydration is correct.  If you don't your final dough could be much wetter than 62-64 and you wouldn't know it.

Quote
A 50/50 mix by weight is 100% hydration. Like Bill, I prefer to use the percent water because it is easier for me (and, I suspect for most people) to grasp conceptually. For example, Bill often uses a 46/54 mix, meaning that his mix is 46% water and 54% flour. He also uses an amount of starter expressed in relation to total dough weight. I usually express my preferment as a percent of total formula flour. It doesn't really matter whether one uses volume or weight measurements in starting and refreshing starters or how one expresses the preferment so long as one is consistent and knows the quantities used. Otherwise it will be difficult to achieve consistency and reproducibility of dough under any method.

So let's say we have a formula like this:

500 gr. KABF
310 gr. H20 @ 62% hydration
10 gr. Of Salt = 2%
15 gr. Starter = 5% of total flour but from a 46/54 starter as mentioned above.
This starter is then 85% hydration.

We then follow Bill's procedure:
1. Put water in bowl of mixer
2. Dissolve salt in water
3. Dump in 75% of flour
4. Mix until combined
5. Rest for 5 minutes
6. Mix in starter
7. Slowly sprinkle in remaining 25% of flour
8. Knead for about 7 minutes until desired texture is reached
9. Rest of 20 minutes
10. Mix for 2 turns

I have already defined the 62% hydration as 310 gr. of H20
If I am adding an additional 5% of starter @ 46/54 (85%) what is the new total hydration %?

Maybe I'm making this too complicated but for some reason it's not sinking in.   :-[

Thanks in advance……Vince

I started out with nothing and still have most of it left!

Offline 2112

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2007, 02:16:04 PM »

I forgot to add that Marco says he uses a starter of 1-5% of the total amount of water.  :o   ???

That would be a considerably smaller % of starter compared to my last post! In weight of course!!  ;D



I started out with nothing and still have most of it left!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2007, 02:51:58 PM »
Vince,

Maybe this will help you. Assume that you want to use a total formula that includes 500 grams of flour, 310 grams of water (62% hydration), and 10 grams of salt (2%). The total weight is 820 grams (500 + 310 + 10 = 820). Also, assume that you want to use an amount of starter that represents 5% of the weight of the formula flour, and that the starter is made up of 46% water and 54% flour. This is what the pieces of the formulation would look like:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2%):
Total (164%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
310 g  |  10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
820 g | 28.92 oz | 1.81 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs
11.5 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs
25 g | 0.88 oz | 0.06 lbs

 
486.5 g | 17.16 oz | 1.07 lbs
298.5 g | 10.53 oz | 0.66 lbs
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
25 g | 0.88 oz | 0.06 lbs
820 g | 28.92 oz | 1.81 lbs  | TF = N/A

As you can see, the starter (preferment) is carved out of the Total Formula as shown in the above tabulation. To complete the dough, you would add the starter (Preferment) in the amount designated (25 grams) to the quantities of ingredients specified in the Final Dough as shown in the above tabulation.

If you would like to use more or less starter, it is possible to re-do the tabulation. At your option, the starter can be specified as a percent of the total formula flour (which is a common approach used by bakers), the total formula water (as Marco specifies), or as a percent of the total amount of dough (which is Bill’s common technique). It is also possible to change the Total Formula, that is, to increase the quantities of ingredients or decrease them. Most people generally have a total dough weight or an individual dough ball weight in mind from which they work. If you’d like to give me some numbers, I will see what I can do to give you a new formulation breakdown.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Best Yet
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2007, 07:43:05 PM »
My experience, where a hyperactive starter caused VERY different results, even though following all aspects of the recipe, makes me wonder whether so many of the variations and so much of the unpredictability has to do with the vigor of the starter.

zandonatti:

Is there a possibility that your starter is contaminated? I used to capture my own wild cultures before discovering sourdo.com. I recall once or twice capturing a culture that wasn't noxious, respond great to feedings, but gave a relatively small rise once mixed into the dough. As I recall, my conclusion at the time was that the wild culture thrived in a relatively narrow temperature range and was not suitable for baking. Just a thought.

Bill/SFNM


 

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