Author Topic: IDY  (Read 4678 times)

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Offline bolabola

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IDY
« on: July 12, 2006, 06:13:09 PM »
is instant dry yeast the same as fleischman's rapidrise yeast??
I live in a small town and that's all they have except for ADY..
by some miriacle they just started carrying 6in1 so I scored on that.. ;D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 06:30:15 PM by bolabola »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 07:40:25 PM »
bolabola,

The Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast is a very active form of instant dry yeast (IDY) as sold to the consumer market. However, the yeast sold by Fleischmann's in the supermarket in little bottles as bread machine yeast is instant dry yeast. You can use either yeast for "IDY" but if you intend to do any serious pizza making or baking using IDY, you should really search out a source of IDY that is sold to professional bakers in one-pound bags. Places like Costco's and Sam's sell it, usually for less than $5. IDY is also sold online at places like King Arthur, amazon.com and PennMac, at pennmac.com, among others. Common brands are SAF (SAF Red) and Fleischmann's.

Peter

Offline bolabola

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Re: IDY
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 08:37:03 PM »
Thanks Peter..
my next newbie question then is should I use less of the rapid-rise yeast as compared to the bread machine yeast since it's more active??
all they have are the little packets at my local store but I will be making the 2 hour drive to costco soon and pick up a bag of yeast..
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 09:53:10 PM »
bolabola,

Yes, you can use a bit less of the Rapid-Rise yeast but unless you are making a lot of dough at one time you are unlikely to be able to measure out the difference using standard measuring spoons. Using the same amount shouldn't have a material effect on the outcome.

Peter

Offline bolabola

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Re: IDY
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2006, 02:49:06 AM »
I used your 16 inch Lehmanns recipe Peter and noticed on the bottom of the recipe you noted you used 10 times the amount of yeast..
It was 1and half teaspoons so I added a quarter teaspoon which was probally a little to much but after 6 hours in the fridge it's looking great..
I also noticed that the dough was much easier to handle then canadaves recipe and didn't tear as easily..
I'll let you know the results

charlie
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2006, 08:48:21 AM »
Charlie,

One of the things I discovered when you try to downsize an industrial size recipe, such as the original Lehmann NY style dough recipe, you can end up with numbers for a single pizza size that are so small, especially for the yeast, that they are hard to believe. It still amazes me that one can make a Lehmann pizza using only 1/4 teaspoon or less of IDY. As you may have noted in subsequent posts, even Tom Lehmann can have problems working with small numbers and where the decimal point belongs. Since I now use a spreadsheet for all my numbers, the math problems have been resolved. Now, I just make other kinds of mistakes :).

Peter

Offline dinks

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Re: IDY
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2006, 01:25:02 PM »
CHARLIE:
  Good morning. Sams club sells the FLSH...  instant yeast in 1 pound bag. They come attached( 2), 1 pound bags vacuum packed for an unbelievable price of $2.89 for both. While there check out their honey that is in case you use honey in your dough as I do. Very lo-price as well. Good luck & have a nice day.

  ~DINKS.

Offline Lydia

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Re: IDY
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 02:48:31 PM »
Hi Peter

I was researching "French Yeast" and came across the following info regarding SAF Red/Gold Instant Yeast.
http://www.lesaffre.fr/Eng/default.asp?cible=/Eng/Institutionnel/i_histoire.htm

Quote
The fine particles of instant yeast, dried on fluidized bed, are vacuum packed in bags of 125 g, 500 g, 10 kg or more. It also exists in sachets of 7 to 12 g, packed under protective atmosphere, for domestic use. The vacuum packed bags are hard, guaranteeing the stability of the product at ambient temperatures. Strict control after packing eliminates any bags which have not retained their vacuum. Partly used bags should be carefully closed and stored at cold temperature. In these conditions, the yeast will retain its normal level of activity for at least a week.

Easy to use
The instant yeast owes its name to the fact that it does not require prior rehydration before being added to flour. It may be used just as easily as compressed yeast. For most applications the fineness and porosity of the particles allow it to be dissolved quickly and homogeneously into the dough. However, the use of very high speed mixers (mixing time less than 3 minutes) may lead to dispersion problems. In which case, a rehydration stage at 38C will be required.
 
 The use of instant yeast does, nevertheless, mean that it is important to avoid direct contact with cold water, ice, or the walls of refrigerated mixers. It is recommended to dry mix the yeast into the flour, or add it onto the dough after the beginning of the mixing process. However, its sensitivity to cold hydration temperature is less pronounced than that of dried yeast.

Its fermenting power is identical to that of compressed yeast for a weight 3 to 4 times less. In other words: 1 kg of instant yeast replaces 3 to 4 kg of compressed yeast. Taking account of the difference in dry matters, it is important to make up the difference in weight with water (2 to 3 kg in the example shown).

 
I was wondering what your thoughts were in regard to the statements I underlined in the quote above.
My jaw hit the floor when I read that only a week of cold storeage was recommended for opened product.
Would the "food processor method" benefit from a hydration step?
How cold would you suppose the temperature would have to be to qualify as "cold water"?

On the site there is also this article covering the affects of freezing dough that I found especially interesting.
http://www.lesaffre.fr/Eng/default.asp?cible=/Eng/Institutionnel/i_histoire.htm

A breif mention of SAF-Pizza ADY http://www.lesaffre.fr/Eng/default.asp?cible=/Eng/Institutionnel/i_histoire.htm
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2006, 03:51:20 PM »
Lydia,

I think I can explain all of the underlined portions but for the storing of yeast at cold temperature. By "cold temperature", I am assuming that refrigeration is intended. However, from what I understand, if dry yeast is kept in the refrigerator in a tightly-sealed container, it should last about 6 months. I suspect that there will be progressive diminishment of its leavening power over that time, but I don't know at what rate. This is never an issue for me because I freeze my dry yeasts. I would never keep the yeast in the refrigerator for 6 months, although I might put an amount that I planned to use in a week in the refrigerator and put the rest back in the freezer. Maybe that is what the portion underlined is intended to mean.

The rehydration of IDY when used in high speed mixers is quite common. I am fairly certain that the types of mixers SAF has in mind are VCMs (vertical cutter mixers) and Robot Coupe mixers. They have large bowls and operate so fast that rehydration of IDY is recommended to get adequate dispersion of the IDY. In addition, the water temperature has to almost exactly 95 degrees F. To the best of my knowledge, these are the only mixers (and quite possibly only the VCMs) that apparently require rehydration of IDY. Whether the concept should apply to food processors is an interesting question, but I suspect that the very small bowl size of food processors pretty much insures that there will be adequate dispersion of the IDY.

As far as contact of IDY with cold water is concerned, neither ADY or IDY (or even fresh yeast) likes to be shocked with cold water. Doing so will affect its metabolism, leach certain soluble cell constituents from the yeast (primarily glutathione), reduce enzyme activity, and otherwise degrade the yeast’s overall performance. However, if the dry yeast is thoroughly blended with the flour, the cold or cool water will be absorbed primarily by the flour and thus have less direct physical contact with the yeast. Alternatively, the dry yeast can be combined and left in the flour for around 30 minutes before adding cold or cool water, during which time the yeast will absorb moisture from the flour (which can typically contain about 11-14% water) and commence rehydration before the cold or cool water is added. "Cold" water in the latter context usually means water that is not frozen. In fact, in hot climates, ice is added to cold water to get its temperature down so that the finished dough temperature is at the desired value. VCMs as mentioned above work so fast and generate so much heat that the bowls have to be cooled down before using and this is usually done with water with ice added.

What the last underlined portion refers to is the need to adjust the water content when substituting one form of yeast for another because of the difference in weights of the two yeast forms. That is much more important where large dough batches are concerned. For home pizza dough makers, the difference in weights of say, ADY and IDY to achieve comparable leavening power is so small as to be negligible. For typical home batch sizes, you may not even be able to measure the difference as a practical matter.

Lydia, when I clicked on the link to the article about freezing dough, I did not find the article. Is there another link to the article?

Peter

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 04:07:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Lydia

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Re: IDY
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2006, 04:07:47 PM »
Peter

Try this one

http://www.lesaffre.fr/Eng/default.asp?cible=Services/s_Ressources.htm

I tried it out so hopefully it works for you.
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Offline Lydia

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Re: IDY
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2006, 04:12:47 PM »
Quote
I would never keep the yeast in the refrigerator for 6 months

I have never put my ADY or IDY in the freezer, and since I'm using both type I can have a brick last about 12 months. I really didn't notice a change, maybe I need to pay a bit more attention.

The only time I noticed a problem was when I has spilled some in the bottom of my freezer bag outside of the original packaging, and had tried to use it. It failed to work at all.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2006, 04:36:15 PM »
Lydia,

Thank you. That was an interesting article.

Peter

Offline billneild

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Re: IDY
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2006, 04:38:28 PM »
Lydia - I bought my 1 pound bag of IDY yeast and subdivided it into 2 parts.  13 oz. in the freezer in one of those air tight jars; 3 oz. in a little container in the fridge.  Still using the fridge part 3 mo. later.  It still works fine.

Bill

Offline bolabola

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Re: IDY
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2006, 02:23:26 AM »
the Lehmann recipe that I used turned out beautifully Peter..
great taste and texture..it doubled in size after 3 days in the fridge and had a very nice yeasty smell to it..
the only fault to me was I missed those big air pockets that I like which I achived with canadave's recipe..
I know my oven temp has something to do with it but is it possible that adding only 2/3rds of the flour and letting it sit for 20 minutes like in canadave's recipe makes the difference??
someone else also told me that their aunt in Sicily used tons of olive oil in her dough and it would get those big air pockets when cooking because of the oil and water blistering in the hot oven they had but I tended to disagree with him..from what I've read here it's the higher content of water in the dough..
any thoughts???
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2006, 07:40:27 AM »
Charlie,

I'm glad to hear that your Lehmann dough turned out well. Was it closer to what you remember of the NY style pizzas of your past? And how would you compare it with the Canadave version? Feel free to be frank. My feelings won't be hurt.

On the matter of bubbles: The Lehmann NY style dough recipe is a low-yeast recipe that was originally developed for professional pizza operators. One of the last things they want is bubbling because this means that they either have to dock the dough skins before dressing or they have to use dough poppers to deflate the bubbles to prevent upheavals in the pie from rearranging the toppings. If a conveyor oven is being used, the use of dough poppers is pretty much out of the question, and having to open a deck oven to pop bubbles lets valuable oven heat escape from the oven. So, using low yeast helps minimize the bubbling and having to deal with them.

However, since the most common cause of bubbling is dough that is too cold, next time you make the Lehmann dough you might try shaping and dressing the dough as it comes out of the refrigerator, or shortly thereafter (maybe 15 minutes). If that doesn't work, I would try adding more yeast in a future effort.

I don't think the rest period as used in the Canadave recipe was behind the lack of big bubbles. Or at least I have never read anything to that effect. Likewise for using more oil. But, adding more oil won't hurt anything although it will alter the properties of the crust when you use a lot of it. Maybe sometime you can conduct an experiment using a lot more oil. However, I wouldn't make all the changes to the Lehmann dough at one time. I would do it more scientifically, by changing only one variable at a time.

Peter

Offline bolabola

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Re: IDY
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2006, 06:15:01 PM »
sorry it took so long to reply Peter..My PC is on a satillite dish and it sometimes it decides to go on vacation(one of the joys of country living :) )

for me the Canadave recipe seems to be working better then the Lehmann version but it's way to early for me to make any kind of judgement as I need to experiment many more batches of dough untill I get it tuned in to what I'm looking for..the Lehmann dough was not what I remember from Brooklyn pizza but then again I have not perfected my dough yet and also it's been 20 years since I last visited the old neighborhood..
but it's been a huge improvement from what I was doing before..it had great flavor and chewy but I couldn't get the crispness in the crust that I wanted without overcooking the cheese..even though NY pizza dosen't have those big air pockets I can't help but love biteing into them like the Pizza I get from Lo Coco's down in Marin County which is a 3 hour drive so I'm trying to get a happy inbetween on the crust..I know the owner but he won't give me his recipe..
I plan on going to NY in April on way to Europe so I'll be making a tour de force update here at pizzamaking.com on my findings..for sure Di Fara will be on that report..

I tried the Lehmann dough cold out of the fridge but it didn't result in a puffy dough..same as with Canadaves..I also tried more oil and it didn't seem to do much..

I did some research on woodburning  pizza stoves..I can't remember the name of the one I liked but it was $12,000 without all the bell and whistles..ouch!!!and i hate the green egg..
so I tried my old smoker which has cooked many a turkey and wildgame but I couldn't get it hot enuff..maybe if I get a bunch of oak going in it instead of mesquite it might get up to 600 degrees but then again I don't want that smokey flavor from the wood..

anyway here are a couple of pics and as soon as I find perfection you will be the first to know Peter..any pointers would be a big help :chef: :pizza:
thanks again..





 
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Offline bolabola

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Re: IDY
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2006, 06:43:03 PM »
one more pic..even though those coals were red hot and I just added some more on the top I think the trick is to have a roaring flame going when closeing the lid even though that will add to alot more smoke..I think with the lid closed I had it up to 500 and I left it closed for 20 minutes with the pizza in and a heating up peroid of 30 minutes on full flame so it was very hot..
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2006, 06:46:32 PM »
Charlie,

You might try increasing the amount of IDY to try to get the bubbling in the crust, in conjunction with using the dough when it is cold. Lessening the fermentation time might produce the same result. For example, instead of using say, 24-48 hours fermentation, you might use the dough at about 16 hours. The dough might be more elastic than usual because of the shortened fermentation time, but that is one of the tradeoffs.

I might add that one of the reasons that pizza operators use an overnight cold fermentation is to minimize bubbling.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 07:02:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline ratana

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Re: IDY
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2007, 11:08:12 PM »
Hi, I realize this is an old topic, but I did some searching and I have a question..  I bought some IDY at pennmac (the SAF), and have been storing it in the refrigerator per instructions on the package.  I see some comments here about freezing it and things like that, but just wondering, when I go to use the IDY, does it make a difference if I set it out half an hour before I go to use it, to bring it to room temperature, or can I just use it instantly?  I know that it definitely does seem to perform differently depending on my water temperature, so just wondering if the IDY temperature matters at all to any significant degree?  I have not really noticed any wildly different behaviors, but just wondering, trying to get a handle on all of the variables involved in the dough making process....

thanks --

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2007, 08:33:57 AM »
ratana,

If you research this topic, you will get both opinions. But, as noted at the SAF FAQ section at http://www.safyeast.com/FAQ2.html, you will see that SAF says that you don't have to let the yeast warm up before using. My practice is to take the yeast out of the freezer as part of rounding up all of the ingredients I plan to use to make my pizza dough.

If you plan to mix the IDY in with the flour, doing that will also help warm up the IDY and also start the hydration process using the moisture in the flour.

Peter