Author Topic: Can a KA sourdough starter be used in combination with IDY for a great tasting p  (Read 4490 times)

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Offline mitchjg

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I wouldn't disagree that adding SD to a yeast dough might make a better product than the yeast dough. Personal preferences aside, my disagreement is that it will make a better product than an all-SD dough. If adding SD increases flavor, how does having IDY in there competing for the resources and shortening the time create better flavor that not having it in there? What is the benefit of having IDY in addition to SD? What does it add?

IF you are going to make a room temperature fermented dough, then I see no particular reason to have both yeast and SD.  The SD only dough should be better.  It is what I do (with many thanks to you for getting me there).

IF, however, your intent is to make a cold fermented dough, for scheduling management and whatever other reasons you may have, then a yeast based dough will be better than an SD based dough.  But, a yeast based dough that is supplemented with sD for flavor, will likely be better than that.

Not withstanding the merits or lack of merits of a cold ferment at all, I think it is:

Room temp ferment:

SD>SD+yeast>yeast

For cold ferment:

yeast + SD > yeast > SD

Does that make sense?


Online Donjo911

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Scott,
I am not trying to teach new members how to make basic NY style pizzas.
Warning! Cannot resolve circular reference! :-D
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

Offline mitchjg

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Mitch,

Thanks so much for your post. Do you have links to where you tried your Varasano type doughs?

Norma

I have made quite a few Varasano type doughs (cold fermented for 3 days, about 0.25% IDY, about 9% or more SD).  However, my record keeping is pretty bad.  If I locate more that I am certain are these doughs, I will let you know.  I did find this one:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg304815#msg304815

- Mitch

Offline TXCraig1

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IF, however, your intent is to make a cold fermented dough, for scheduling management and whatever other reasons you may have, then a yeast based dough will be better than an SD based dough.  But, a yeast based dough that is supplemented with sD for flavor, will likely be better than that.

Not withstanding the merits or lack of merits of a cold ferment at all

I don't know enough to agree or disagree with this. I wouldn't rule it out, but I've have more than one baker's yeast NP pie that is clearly superior to the best CF SD NP pies I've tried.
Pizza is not bread.

Online norma427

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I think you may have taken my comment the wrong way. I love that you are so open and willing to experiment. All I'm saying is that if you try something and it doesn't work, and you can't think of any reason why it should, it probably won't. Just something to think about.

Craig,

I will think about your comment.  It does have merit.  I might be going on a "wild goose chase again". 

Norma
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Online norma427

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I have made quite a few Varasano type doughs (cold fermented for 3 days, about 0.25% IDY, about 9% or more SD).  However, my record keeping is pretty bad.  If I locate more that I am certain are these doughs, I will let you know.  I did find this one:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg304815#msg304815

- Mitch

Mitch,

Your pie from your Varasano style dough does look very good!  Thanks for the link!

Norma
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scott123

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I am not trying to teach new members how to make basic NY style pizzas.  When I tried the preferment Lehmann dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.0 under the NY Style I did not see a lot of complaints.

Norma, I did not complain at the time because you were just a member experimenting. As a moderator, I hold you to a higher standard. Being a moderator makes you an authority, and, as an authority, you should be aware of basic style definitions. 

Quote
Just because a NY style has some sourdough in it in my opinion does not make it not a NY style pizza.

Your opinion is wrong :)  There has never been sourdough in NY style pizza and there never will be.  The only authority that has implied otherwise is Jeff Varasano, and he recently recanted his position.

Associating NY style pizza with sourdough, even just for experimentation, does a massive disservice to new members looking to recreate their favorite pizza. We get enough new members coming over from Jeff's website laboring under this misconception. We don't need to spread it within the forum, especially by someone with your authoritative voice.

Offline jvp123

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Norma, I did not complain at the time because you were just a member experimenting. As a moderator, I hold you to a higher standard. Being a moderator makes you an authority, and, as an authority, you should be aware of basic style definitions. 

Your opinion is wrong :)  There has never been sourdough in NY style pizza and there never will be.  The only authority that has implied otherwise is Jeff Varasano, and he recently recanted his position.

Associating NY style pizza with sourdough, even just for experimentation, does a massive disservice to new members looking to recreate their favorite pizza. We get enough new members coming over from Jeff's website laboring under this misconception. We don't need to spread it within the forum, especially by someone with your authoritative voice.

Lets just give this type of pizza a new name ... how about the NJ (New Jersey).  Its next to NY!  (just kidding).  But seriously it sounds like Scott's issue is calling it a NY if it has SD in it.  So just call it something else.
Jeff

Offline mitchjg

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Mitch,

Your pie from your Varasano style dough does look very good!  Thanks for the link!

Norma

You are welcome.  I found one other link with 2 pies. 

I will not claim what style pies these were.  I will claim they tasted pretty good!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg279183#msg279183


Online norma427

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Norma, I did not complain at the time because you were just a member experimenting. As a moderator, I hold you to a higher standard. Being a moderator makes you an authority, and, as an authority, you should be aware of basic style definitions. 

Your opinion is wrong :)  There has never been sourdough in NY style pizza and there never will be.  The only authority that has implied otherwise is Jeff Varasano, and he recently recanted his position.

Associating NY style pizza with sourdough, even just for experimentation, does a massive disservice to new members looking to recreate their favorite pizza. We get enough new members coming over from Jeff's website laboring under this misconception. We don't need to spread it within the forum, especially by someone with your authoritative voice.

Scott,

I respect your opinions, but just because I am a moderator now doesn't mean I have to stop doing experiments in what might work, or not work out.  I know usually NY style pies don't have sourdough in them. but that doesn't necessarily mean to me that a NY style pizza with sourdough and a regular yeast can't be tried. 

I don't expect any new members to even be interested in this thread.  I would explain if any new member comments that they should first learn to make a basic NY style pizza, and would of have to be able to mastered that before they even comment on this thread.

If you want me taken off as a moderator you can ask Steve.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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There is nothing new or original about using a combination of a natural starter and commercial yeast. I believe that pretty much everyone recalls that Jeff Varasano did that years ago. My recollection is that he said that the commercial yeast was to give more "poof" to the dough. Prof. Calvel also talks about using both a natural starter and commercial yeast, in the context of French bread baking. Nancy Silverton also recommended using a combination of a natural starter and commercial yeast for certain types of breads. The Sullivan Bakery in NYC also used a combination of a sourdough starter and a commercial yeast. I discussed these matters in greater detail in the following posts:

Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16437.msg212869;topicseen#msg212869

Reply 1239 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21830.msg293590#msg293590

Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31307.msg311611;topicseen#msg311611

In my own experience, I found that the use of commercial yeast together with a natural starter overtook the natural starter and negated the flavor effects that came from the use of natural starters. Even Prof. Calvel and Nancy Silverton cautioned against using too much commercial yeast with a natural starter, to insure that the commercial yeast did not rob the bread of the flavors contributed by the natural starter.

I should also mention that commercial yeast can add flavor to a finished crust. As noted at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16775.msg166378;topicseen#msg166378, Prof. Calvel said that fresh yeast was not discernible in French bread until its usage reached 2.5%. Beyond that, Prof. Calvel apparently found the taste impact to be undesirable in bread. I also reported in Reply 25 how commercial yeast can be used to impart more flavor to cracker style crusts where the dough is fermented for short periods of time. In Norma's case, I assume that the commercial yeast would be used in low amounts, although I suppose it would be possible to use a fair amount of commercial yeast, for leavening purposes, and use an essentially "dead" starter for flavoring purposes, as was mentioned earlier. That is how faux sourdough breads are made.

I appreciate that scott123 does not want to bastardize the NY style name by using a natural starter. He is correct that it is unheard of to use a natural starter with a NY style dough even though I did that several times with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. I simply looked at the matter as just modifying the leavening aspects of the NY style dough formulation. The rest of the formulation was the same as one not using a natural starter. However, if this is to become a contentious matter that detracts from the purpose of Norma's experiments, we can discuss whether there is a better home for this thread. Pete Taylor used to complain that his style of pizza, and also the style of pizza that Chris Bianco made, did not fit the forum's indexing system.

As I see it, Norma should proceed with a combination of a natural starter and commercial yeast if only to satisfy herself one way or the other.

Peter

scott123

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If you want me taken off as a moderator you can ask Steve.

Now, Norma, I never said that. And I would never want to discourage you from experimentation.  Nor, for that matter am I denigrating starters in any way.  I'm merely requesting a more appropriate forum for this discussion than this one (and, possibly, a new name for NY style dough made with with natural leavening).  I just noticed we have a 'starter' forum.  How about that?

Offline TXCraig1

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Being a moderator makes you an authority,

Let's just make everyone a moderator then - everyone will be an authority - no more questions - simple.

Quote
Associating NY style pizza with sourdough, even just for experimentation, does a massive disservice to new members looking to recreate their favorite pizza. We get enough new members coming over from Jeff's website laboring under this misconception. We don't need to spread it within the forum, especially by someone with your authoritative voice.

Bravo should start a new show called Real Pizzamakers. Between you on the purity of NY-style and my pizza-is-not-bread rants, we would put the Real Housewives drama to shame.  :-D
Pizza is not bread.

Online waynesize

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That would be much better entertainment, in my opinion.

Wayne

Offline Pete-zza

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Scott,

According to this article, http://bedfordandbowery.com/2013/12/williamsburg-pizza-has-arrived-on-the-lower-east-side/ , the Williamsburg Pizza location in lower Manhattan allegedly uses a "homemade yeast". Would that be a natural leavening system?

Peter

Online norma427

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Peter,

I am not Scott, but I studied Williamsburg pizza some and from what I know Nino Coniglio used to own Pizzeria del Corso, and tossed and twirled his pies there.  http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/the-man-who-makes-the-pizza-dough-fly/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0   You can see who Nino's mentor was.  It was Dom DeMarco.  If the photos of Williamsburg pizza are looked at on their facebook page the one photo of the boy holding a slice shows the bottom crust is pretty dark to my eyes. 

I was planning on going to NYC to see my daughter a little while ago and was going to go to Williamsburg pizza to try their pies in Brooklyn.  That day my granddaughter had to work two shifts so there was no one to let the dogs out.  I did not get to go to Williamsburg Pizza that day.  https://www.facebook.com/WilliamsburgPizza/photos_stream 

I have no idea of what kind of yeast Williamsburg Pizza uses, but also studied another pizzeria in Canada that has some kind of ties to Best Pizza and maybe Williamburg Pizza.  The pizzeria in Canada pies look very similar to Williamburg's pizzas.

Norma

Edit:  To me in this photo of Williamburg Pizza it looks like Nino is making a tomato pie.  http://bfanyc.com/home/photo/504101?search_resource=person&person_id=77514  and more photos.  http://bfanyc.com/home/event/4448
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 11:22:35 PM by norma427 »
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Online orangeman1

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IF you are going to make a room temperature fermented dough, then I see no particular reason to have both yeast and SD.  The SD only dough should be better.  It is what I do (with many thanks to you for getting me there).

IF, however, your intent is to make a cold fermented dough, for scheduling management and whatever other reasons you may have, then a yeast based dough will be better than an SD based dough.  But, a yeast based dough that is supplemented with sD for flavor, will likely be better than that.

Not withstanding the merits or lack of merits of a cold ferment at all, I think it is:

Room temp ferment:

SD>SD+yeast>yeast

For cold ferment:

yeast + SD > yeast > SD

Does that make sense?

mitchjg, you hit the nail on the head for me personally. As the person who contacted Norma prompting the this thread, I found that adding 20% KA starter along with IDY greatly enhanced the flavor and a cold ferment, as well as allowing for easy management and scheduling.

As Norma stated in the original post, my style has been Chicago thin and cracker thin. Maybe it's because these recipes tend to lean towards very tiny amounts of IDY to compete with the KA starter, but the result is the most delicious thin and cracker crust pizzas I have ever eaten. I contacted Norma to get her input on this method as a result of her thread to improve flavor in a dough.

Most of this discussion has been theoretical, but I can tell you as a practical matter that I have made over 200 pizzas using this method and the flavor is light years ahead of any thin or cracker I have ever eaten.

I don't consider myself to be in the same league with regard to pizza knowledge and experience compared to many of the top experts on this forum, so I don't know the answers to whether this is better than another method, or whether it belongs in this forum, or what things are appropriate for a moderator to say. But what I do know is that the method works, and it makes a highly delicious pizza (at the very least, in the thin and cracker style) and isn't that the reason why we come to this website?

Norma wanted to further investigate the success I had, to see how it applied in a NY style, and I thank you Norma for giving it a try, and for your unending quest for knowledge, from which we all benefit. Not to mention your unending kindness.....

Tom
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 07:18:23 AM by orangeman1 »

Offline Pete-zza

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I have no idea of what kind of yeast Williamsburg Pizza uses, but also studied another pizzeria in Canada that has some kind of ties to Best Pizza and maybe Williamburg Pizza.  The pizzeria in Canada pies look very similar to Williamburg's pizzas.

Norma
Norma,

The reason I posted as I did on Williamsburg Pizza was because of the reference to the "homemade yeast". Obviously, the article couldn't have meant commercial yeast because people do not make commercial yeast products in their homes. Then, I thought that maybe the reporting on the homemade yeast was faulty. But I wondered what the author of the article might have been told to end up with "homemade yeast" in the article. That phrase didn't apply to preferments, or at least I never heard anyone ever refer to preferments as homemade yeast, and it did not seem to apply to specialty yeast products that have no leavening power and are used only as flavorings, much as it was reported that Pizzeria Regina was using in and around Boston. It also occurred to me that maybe the author was intentionally misled. As you and I know from our many reverse engineering and cloning projects, that sort of thing happens a lot, or people are reckless with what they say, even when they are insiders and should know better. The only explanation I could come up with is that "homemade yeast" was most likely a natural starter of some sort that was based on captured local wild yeast strains, much as Anthony Mangieri did at UPN when he was in NYC, or so he once told me and also reported elsewhere.

Peter

Online norma427

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Norma,

The reason I posted as I did on Williamsburg Pizza was because of the reference to the "homemade yeast". Obviously, the article couldn't have meant commercial yeast because people do not make commercial yeast products in their homes. Then, I thought that maybe the reporting on the homemade yeast was faulty. But I wondered what the author of the article might have been told to end up with "homemade yeast" in the article. That phrase didn't apply to preferments, or at least I never heard anyone ever refer to preferments as homemade yeast, and it did not seem to apply to specialty yeast products that have no leavening power and are used only as flavorings, much as it was reported that Pizzeria Regina was using in and around Boston. It also occurred to me that maybe the author was intentionally misled. As you and I know from our many reverse engineering and cloning projects, that sort of thing happens a lot, or people are reckless with what they say, even when they are insiders and should know better. The only explanation I could come up with is that "homemade yeast" was most likely a natural starter of some sort that was based on captured local wild yeast strains, much as Anthony Mangieri did at UPN when he was in NYC, or so he once told me and also reported elsewhere.

Peter

Peter,

I wondered whether the author of that article might have been misled.  I never saw before that Williamsburg Pizza used some other kind of yeast other than regular yeast.  I know that sort of thing happens a lot from the reversed engineering threads we have been on.  Maybe Scott does know what kind of yeast Williamsburg Pizza uses.  In my opinion it would be very hard to manage a natural starter in a setting like Williamsburg Pizza.  I looked for what kind of yeast Williamsburg Pizza uses and came up empty handed except for the post you found.

Norma
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Online norma427

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A dough was mixed last night with the KA sourdough starter and IDY.  The KA starter was added when it almost fell back to the original size before feeding.  I used something like Chau's formulation when he went back to his first love dough.  I changed the hydration, the salt amount, the IDY amount and the flour used.  I used GM Full Strength flour.  I know Chau is a much better person to be able work with a higher hydration dough for a NY style pizza than I am, in using the higher hydration he used in combination with oil.  That is why I used a lower hydration.  I also used cold water right out of the fridge.  The KA starter was whisked into the water and the IDY and salt were added to the flour before incorporating them into the KA starter water. The KA starter and IDY dough was very sticky coming out of the mixer bowl.  It took awhile of doing stretch and folds and rests to get the dough to be less sticky.  The dough felt very nice before it was balled.  The dough ball has been cold fermenting since last evening.  It will remained to be seen how well the dough ball opens. 

The formulation is posted below.  The two photos of the KA starter were taken before the KA starter had increased to its fullest in activity after feeding.  It was darker inside so I did not take a photo of what the KA starter looked like before it was whisked into the water.

Norma
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