Author Topic: Deep Dish Crust question  (Read 5114 times)

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Offline djryan1194

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Deep Dish Crust question
« on: June 13, 2006, 03:57:39 PM »
Hello everyone -

I've been going through many trials of trying to replicate an Uno/Malnati type crust for the past few months.  I've made some that are really, really good.  Then other times, not so much.  My general question is... How do you get the dough to "stick" to the pan as you pinch it up the sides?  I'm finding a lot of times, the dough tends to sag down therefore producing a thick, bready crust - YUC.  I'm trying to get a relatively medium thin, flaky, crisp crust.

I'm using a recipe I obtained on this site a while back - don't remember whose it was:

2 1/2 C. AP flour
1 C flour
4 T Corn Oil
1 t yeast
1 T. sugar (my add - not from original)

Like I've said, at times I've had great success.  Then the next pizza won't be so good.  Not sure why. 

Any help/suggestions/alternate recipe suggestions are appreciated!!

Thanks!

-Jen


Offline buzz

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2006, 10:41:23 AM »
Chicago deep dish pizza use a lot of oil. I can replicate Giordano's by using the formula of 3 tablespoons oil/1 cup flour. With this formula, the crust is very pliable and "sticky". Also, you might try rolling the crust out with a rolling pin for a more uniform texture, or use your fingers to press it more evenly into the pan.

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2006, 01:02:12 PM »
Thanks for the response.  I just made another batch.  Bumped up the oil to 6 T.  And I will use a rolling pin this time.

Thanks again!

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2006, 09:45:28 AM »
The second pizza I made with the extra oil was really good.  Crust was a little more crisp and had more flavor.  But the sagging crust was still an issue.  Using the rolling pin helped on the interior part of the pizza.  I had a nice even, controlled thickness.  But on the side where the bottom of the pan meets the side, it was too thick.  Rrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline buzz

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2006, 09:18:38 AM »
Hmmmm....

I don't have a sagging problem--what kind of pan are you using?

Maybe Peter can explain technicalities?

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2006, 10:39:34 AM »
Jen,

You aren’t the only one to experience the shrinkage problem. See, for example, this Tom Lehmann PMQ post: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/1071.

You didn’t indicate the procedures you used to make the dough, but in addition to the possibility of underfermentation discussed by Tom Lehmann in the above post, other possible causes of shrinkage can include 1) using a dough that is too cold, 2) re-rolling or re-kneading a dough before rolling it out, 3) using a flour that is too strong, and 4) using insufficient yeast. Looking at the recipe you recited, I think we can safely rule out causes 3 and 4.

When professionals experience dough shrinkage, the almost universal solution is to use a commercial reducing agent like PZ-44 or “dead yeast” (glutathione). So, unless you are prepared to buy a 50-lb. bag of such a product, you may want to try something a bit more pedestrian. For example, you might allow the dough to “proof” for about 20 minutes at room temperature. That will allow the dough to relax as it rises and thereby “fit” the pan better. If you are using oil in the pan, you might not use any on the sides.

Another possibility is to use a solid fat like butter, margarine, or shortening (such as Crisco) to grease the pan before inserting the dough. The fat can be used only on the sides or the entire pan (sides and bottom). While something like butter (or a butter-flavored Crisco) will add a nice flavor to the crust, a downside to using solid fats to grease the pan is that they have a tendency to make the crust softer, i.e., less crispy. By contrast, using oil will produce a more “fried” effect. One possible way to minimize the effects of using a solid fat is to put dabs of the fat here and there to “anchor” the rolled-out dough. A trade-off from doing this is that the spots where the “dabs” were placed are quite likely to be lighter in color than the surrounding areas. You can see this effect at this post where I described that technique when I made “mini” deep-dish pies: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2478.msg21879.html#msg21879. The effect is cosmetic only, but appearances do sometimes matter.

One of our members, Hi Gluten, recommended a combination of oil and butter, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2478.msg21614.html#msg21614. This might be worth considering.

You didn’t indicate what kind of pan you are using, but I have noticed that many of the newer pan coatings are much more slippery than their predecessors, and it is often difficult to get a dough to stick to them. Using an old seasoned steel pan may do a better job because they aren't as slippery.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 10:02:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2006, 06:56:17 PM »
If you do use a solid fat like butter, make sure it is very solid (hard/cold).  It will stick to the sides of the pan much easier.

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 12:18:43 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions.  Here's how I make this dough... again, got this recipe somewhere on this site, but don't remember where!! :)

First take 1 1/2 C of the flour (I use King Arthur AP), and sprinkle the yeast in it.

I dissolve about 2 T of sugar in the 1 C of warm water, and mix it in with the flour and yeast with a wooden spoon until it comes together.

Add 5 T. corn oil and 1 C flour.

Mix until the dough ball is formed.  (Maybe 1 minute tops.)

I cover the bowl tightly with plastic wrap and let it sit on the counter for 7-8 hours.

When I take it out of the bowl, I have been kneading it for about a minute.  (Maybe I should eliminate this step?)

I roll it out with a pin, then place in the pan which I've oiled with classic olive oil.  I then pinch up the sides and manually press out so the crust is even and not too thick.  Its at this point where the dough on the sides of the pan slips down and bunches up where the side meets the bottom of the pan.

The pan I'm using is an actual authentic deep dish pan obtained from the original Uno's downtown in Chicago.  When I went last time, I asked if I could buy the pan we had!!  They were cool and sold it to me for 10 bucks.  So its all nasty, black, seasoned and good!

So that's pretty much it.  Any feedback is appreciated.  I will definetly try using butter on the sides, and also maybe not rekneading it after its risen.

Thanks again... LOVE this site!

-Jen

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2006, 01:23:56 PM »
Jen,

Based on what you have said, I would be inclined not to re-knead the dough. You may have been developing just enough gluten to cause the shrinkage problem you have been experiencing. I think I would also try the butter, or oil/butter combination, on the sides of the pan. If that doesn't do the trick, then I think I would let the dough proof in the pan for about 20 minutes or so. That may help solve the problem but it might also result in a puffier and softer crust, which you may or may not like.

If you find a solution that works, I hope you will let us know so that we can all learn from your experience.

Peter


Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2006, 03:06:27 PM »
Ok - I will definetly try those things.  I need to wait at least a few days... if I made pizza AGAIN my kids may revolt!!! :)

I'll post my results next time around...

Thanks again.

-Jen


Offline pkasten

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2006, 02:52:30 AM »
I roll mine out with a rolling pin, and drape it over the pan, making it large enough that it hangs well over the edges.  Then I place the cheese and toppings it, building up.. once you're at this point, the toppings, not stickiness are holding the dough in place.  when everything is in, I cut away the excess dough and bake.  great results every time.  nice, very tight fit in the pan.. perfectly uniform shape and cooking.

A few procedural things to look at.  Deep dish crust needs to be crisp, yes, but it's the flaky texture and richness that really make it unique.  In many ways, it's more like making a biscuit or pie dough than a traditional leavened bread dough.  This being the goal, the oil and water additions are backwards in your procedure. 

Try starting with a bowl of flour mixed with the sugar and salt.  You NEED salt.  Trust me, I'm a chef.. a small addition of salt, say just a teaspoon of kosher salt, will greatly enhance the flavor of your dough, without making it salty at all.  Store-bought bread for example, would taste lousy without salt... it's gotta be in there.   Now add the oil and mix until it's well incorporated, forming fine, flaky bits.  Then add your water and yeast, mix, and kneed for a few minutes.  Form it into a ball, and cover it tightly.  Let it rise at room temp for a few hours until it's doubled in size.  Punch it down, cover, and let it double again.  Now pull it out of the bowl, punch it down, and roll it out.  The difference in texture is great.  As far as greasing the pan, a light coat of butter will do just fine.. wouldn't want any more than that.  there's enough fat in the dough already to get that great texture and flavor.  Great stuff.  good luck.

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 07:32:20 AM »
pkasten,

I hadn't noticed the lack of salt in the recipe, but that was intentional (the recipe is a DKM take on an Uno's/Malnati's style deep-dish). The salt issue is one that has been debated before. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg21221.html#msg21221 and related posts in the same thread.

But I do find the idea of adding the oil to the flour before the water to be an intriguing one. That would be similar to the sequence used when making a pie crust (but substituting a solid fat for oil).

Peter
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 07:38:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline pkasten

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2006, 01:56:25 AM »
yeah, mixing the oil in first makes a big difference in texture and taste... flakier and richer.


sorry, but i have to say the argument against salt is asinine.  try making the same recipe both ways and tasting side-by-side... we're not shooting for enough salt to make something taste noticeably salty.. salt's impact on the other flavors in the dough is something in culinary circles that's simply not up for debate.  I checked out the older thread, and as for the suggestion that Neapolitan pizza is made without salt, it's pretty clear from the Verace Pizza Napoletana site, that they've been putting salt in it for a few hundred years.. they're not ones to succumb to the whims of salt-crazed modern cooks
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 02:08:25 AM by pkasten »

Offline Buffalo

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2006, 08:43:42 AM »
Good Morning pkasten;
I have never tried the "technique" you mention with regard to making the dough for a deep dish pizza, but then I have never really been happy with how my crust turned out.
I am definitely going to give your suggestions a try and am really looking forward to "tasting" the results.  Do you have a specific dough recipe you would be willing to share ???  Thanks much.......
Buffalo

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2006, 09:42:05 AM »
pkasten,

Not to belabor the point, but if you take a magnifying glass to the photo at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.msg5246.html#msg5246, as I did, you will see that the list of ingredients for the Malnati crust does not include salt. It could well be that it is made up for elsewhere, as in the toppings, etc., but the crust is apparently saltless.

I can't speak to DKM's reference to the use or non-use of salt in Neapolitan doughs, but there was a period in Italian history where legend has it that the Duke of Tuscany imposed a tax on salt that led to bakers protesting the tax by leaving salt out of their breads. That led to saltless Tuscan bread that, I believe, remains saltless to this day.

I would think that leaving salt out of a pizza dough would allow for a greater rise (because of reduced effect on yeast fermentation), a softer gluten structure, and slightly greater crust coloration (because the enzymes have a longer time to extract sugar from the starch). I would think that the high amount of oil would offset some of these effects, but maybe the remnant effects are sufficiently positive as to make the salt unnecessary. For me, personally, the matter is somewhat moot because I use salt, but I am receptive to gaining a better understanding as to why the salt may be unnecessary, at least in the minds of the Malnati family.

When I make my next deep-dish, I plan to try mixing in the oil before the water. Logically, it seems that adding the oil first will impede the development of gluten in the dough, which can be a desirable thing if one wants a flaky texture in the finished crust. I would think also that good results could be achieved by working some ice-cold butter or Crisco into the flour before adding the water, just as in making a pie crust.

Peter


Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 10:22:49 PM »
Wow.  Good suggestions here since I peeked in last.

Doing the butter on the sides and not rekneading didn't solve the slipped dough problem.  I am going to make extra dough next time and roll out a bigger circle and drap it over the sides.  Great idea.  I will also try your technique, and add some salt.  I did intentionally leave it out before as the original recipe I was using didn't call for it.  I'm definetly NOT a chef.  I'm just a "regular" chick from Chicago desperately trying to duplicate Chicago pizza here in Ohio.  So I welcome all help/suggestions.  My pizza is light years ahead of where it was before since I joined this group.

Thanks again everyone.  At this point, I'm just trying to improve upon a pizza that's already amazing.  Fine tuning!

-Jen

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2006, 09:51:37 AM »
UGH.  Total disaster.  I used pkasten's suggestions... mixing the oil in with the flour/salt/sugar mixture.  Then the water/yeast.  The crust was like a soggy sponge.  Very bready as well.  I don't think I did anything wrong.. I followed the suggestions to the letter.  Punched the dough down when it doubled, etc.  I also overrolled the dough, and draped it over the sides.  This by the way, didn't help the original slipped side problem, because when I cut the dough away, it just fell over into the pizza.  Ugh.

I'm going to revert back to my old method which does produce an excellent pizza.  I'm not sure why this didn't work.  But I'm glad I tried.  You don't get anywhere without trying new methods.

Has anyone else tried this and gotten good results?

Thanks - Jen


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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2006, 02:32:46 PM »
Jen,

About the only thing left that I can think of is to try proofing the dough before dressing. That will alter the crumb texture a bit but maybe if you roll out the dough a bit thinner before panning it, the rise won't be as pronounced. I would try about 30-45 minutes proofing at room temperature, with the dough covered during that time so as not to develop a skin. Maybe the gluten will relax enough to allow better shaping and less shrinkage. Some operators proof in a humidified environment, but I don't know if that will help with the shrinkage problem you have been experiencing.

Peter

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2006, 12:45:05 AM »
Quote
Doing the butter on the sides and not rekneading didn't solve the slipped dough problem.

Since your pan is already well-seasoned, you might want to try NOT oiling/buttering the sides since the seasoning will be sufficient to release the finished crust. I've been using the same deep-dish pan since 1985 so it's extremely well-seasoned, and I've found that oiling/greasing the sides interferes with the dough adhering to it.

A "cheat" I resort to when the dough still won't stick to the sides (BTW, why is it called the "sides" of a pan when it's actually one continuous side? ::) ) is to moisten the outer wall of the dough lightly with water (a pastry brush works well for this) and press it into the sides of the pan. (Go easy on the water: you want just enough to make it slightly tacky.)

Quote
I also overrolled the dough, and draped it over the sides.  This by the way, didn't help the original slipped side problem, because when I cut the dough away, it just fell over into the pizza.  Ugh.

I usually let the dough rest for 10-15 min after panning it before trimming off the excess. That's usually enough time for the gluten to start to relax and the dough to have shrunk back all it's going to, but not long enough for the dough to rise appreciably. You can press the dough back into the corners before trimming off the excess. That will help with the thickness at the corners, but don't press the sides if you can help it.



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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2006, 12:11:59 PM »
(BTW, why is it called the "sides" of a pan when it's actually one continuous side? ::) )

gottabedapan,

This is a bit OT but I, too, have wondered the same thing. It occurs to me that possibly a square or rectangular metal baking pan was invented before a round one. A rectangular or square pan could have been fashioned from flat metal stock and the edges soldered or brazed (welding may not have existed at the time) to form actual, distinct "sides" and complete the pan. I can imagine a way that a round pan could also have been made from flat stock, but would have been much harder to do. Round pans became easy to make when welding and metal stamping came into being, and having gotten used to referring to "sides" of a pan, that usage may have moved over to the round pans out of habit.

After reading your suggestions for overcoming dough slippage and shrinkage, I wondered whether dusting the "sides" of the pan with a bit of flour after buttering or oiling the sides would also help alleviate the problem.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 12:15:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DKM

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2006, 12:29:36 PM »
I never oil the sides.  I put enough oil in the bottom of the pan then put the dough ball in the middle and pat it out.  When I pull up the sides there is a little oil from the bottom of the pan and the pan is well seasoned enough for it not to stick.

The only times I have problems with the dough shrinking is when it is not relaxed enough.

DKM
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Offline djryan1194

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2006, 06:30:14 AM »
More great suggestions.  I'll give this all a try too.  Thanks!

Offline buzz

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2006, 10:06:02 AM »
DJRyan--


If your dough is too soggy, then cut back on the liquid. If your crust is too bready, reduce the kneading time (biscuit-like deep dish crusts should be kneaded for 2-2.5 minutes). if your dough doesn't stick to the sides of the pan, then increase the oil content (3 tablesppons oil/1 cup flour).

Offline DKM

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Re: Deep Dish Crust question
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2006, 10:13:00 PM »
Also try a single change at a time.  That way you know want the effect is of that single change.

DKM
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