Author Topic: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?  (Read 4175 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #240 on: August 19, 2014, 10:14:00 AM »
I knew you liked momma jokes.

They have a time and a place. The key is knowing the right time and the right place so you don't get the snot beat out of you.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline quixoteQ

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #241 on: August 19, 2014, 10:31:16 AM »
They have a time and a place. The key is knowing the right time and the right place so you don't get the snot beat out of you.

Truer words have rarely been said.
Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #242 on: August 19, 2014, 11:53:56 AM »
Since we have only been able to identify one pizzeria using a natural starter to make a NY style pizza and calling that pizza a NY style, and Norma may at some point be the second such pizzeria, and whether Scott acknowledges either because they are not in NY, one might ask why not exclude a sourdough version from the NY style of pizza? It isn't as though pizza operators specializing in the NY style are tripping all over each other to make sourdough versions. On the other hand, the VPN chose to be inclusive and to allow both non-sourdough and sourdough versions under the same umbrella and under the same set of rules for the Neapolitan style. And both sides have coexisted peacefully. And, if one looks at the numbers, there are perhaps more pizza operators in the U.S. specializing in the Neapolitan style who are using natural starters than there are in Naples, and doing so successfully and profitably. I might also note that standards don't guarantee compliance. Not everyone in Naples follows the VPN rules. Some thumb their noses at the VPN and accuse them of being motivated by profits and politics. Even Marco has found faults with the VPN rules. Even in the U.S., the American arm of the VPN has its detractors, and they are quite often vocal about their feelings.

As I see it, Craig's position is likely to eventually prevail. If a NY style pizza operator decides all of a sudden to make NY style pizzas using a natural starter, that operator will continue to call its pizzas NY style. And, no one is going to be able to stop them, no matter how passionate they feel on the matter. Once the genie is out of the bottle, the game is over. One might even be able to argue that the genie has already been let out of the bottle, by Vito's in LA. whether Scott will accept that or not. And Norma may be next. And maybe Williamsburg Pizza at some point if it hasn't already done so. 

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #243 on: August 19, 2014, 12:03:41 PM »
Lets close the book on this by simply coming out for our pizza at THE SMILING WITH HOPE BAKERY to get a pie baked by a guy who grew up in the NJ/NYC pizza scene, bakes at 560 degrees in original 1970's blodgett 1000 ovens, uses bromated flour, commercial yeast, and people from NY,NJ, and all over the World like it  :-D  Walter
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 12:07:40 PM by waltertore »

Offline Donjo911

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #244 on: August 19, 2014, 12:19:51 PM »
Lets close the book on this by simply coming out for our pizza at THE SMILING WITH HOPE BAKERY to get a pie baked by a guy who grew up in the NJ/NYC pizza scene, bakes at 560 degrees in original 1970's blodgett 1000 ovens, uses bromated flour, commercial yeast, and people from NY,NJ, and all over the World like it  :-D  Walter


I missed a few days of this thread.  There was a point when I thought there might be 57 child boards. One for each state; DC, and territories and air & ocean space.  Because, it's not NY pizza unless it was made inside of NY - regardless of ingredients :-D
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You start with the people with the funny names.

Online scott123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #245 on: August 19, 2014, 06:34:46 PM »
If a NY style pizza operator decides all of a sudden to make NY style pizzas using a natural starter, that operator will continue to call its pizzas NY style. And, no one is going to be able to stop them, no matter how passionate they feel on the matter.

Peter, how many pizzerias sell 'Neapolitan' pizza that is absolutely nothing like  real Neapolitan pizza?  Does this mean that authentic Neapolitan pizza is doomed?  That we, as a community stop trying to preserve it?

Various members may have particular issues with aspects of the VPN rules, but this forum has a surprisingly well defined view of Neapolitan pizza.  No one's saying it's baked for longer than 2 minutes, no one is saying it's traditionally made with anything but 00 pizzeria flour and no experienced member posts photos of what they consider to be Neapolitan pizza that anyone ever disputes as being authentic. New members may walk in not being on the right page, but that typically ends very quickly if they stick around.  Collectively, we know the truth, and the public, for the most part, does not.

The countless fraudulent 'operators'  who market  faux Neapolitan pizza have no bearing here. The collective Neapolitan wisdom here isn't influenced by public ignorance.  We influence the public.  I've already started to see the effects of this influence beginning to manifest themselves on other websites.  Is everyone in this nation, this world, eventually going to know what authentic Neapolitan pizza is?  I doubt it. Does this forum have any chance in influencing even appreciable numbers? I don't know. But just because a restaurant owner is perverting history and falsely redefining tradition doesn't mean that we have to just roll over and accept the perversion.

The same unified and cohesive manner that this community approaches Naples can be applied to the manner in which it approaches NY.  In many ways, it already has.  John Q. (and Mary T.) forum member have a far far clearer picture of NY style pizza than the public.  But we can go considerably further.  Just because NY is inherently more difficult to classify, just because it's never really had a Marco equivalent for NY style, doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to respect the tradition. Do I pretend to be that 'Marco equivalent?' Absolutely not.  I have gaps in my knowledge of NY pizza history that I know that Marco (and Omid) doesn't mirror on the Naples side.

But I do know, just as a guy that eats a crapload of pizza, and has talked about it with countless people, that sourdough is not a part of NY style history, not a part of it's tradition.  It's my hope that, just as this forum, and the Italian authorities, have been respectful towards Marco's presentation of his area's culture, it can be respectful towards mine.

The unified Neapolitan voice of this forum didn't come about through the actions of moderators. It wasn't policed into effect.  A special sub forum wasn't formed.  It happened because knowledgeable people shared their experiences, and others resonated with that wisdom.  Truths, no matter the stature of the people stating them or the amount of pain they generate, tend to survive.  If one single person, after reading this thread, says "maybe NY style pizza is defined by the tradition, by the history, and, maybe, sourdough isn't a part of it"  then I have achieved my goal.  When you're up against entrenched beliefs and cronyism, you celebrate whatever victories you can get, however small.  I'm in this for the long haul.

Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

Offline cylint

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #246 on: August 19, 2014, 07:18:23 PM »
Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

What should the thickness factor be?

Offline JBailey

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #247 on: August 19, 2014, 07:30:41 PM »
Peter, how many pizzerias sell 'Neapolitan' pizza that is absolutely nothing like  real Neapolitan pizza?  Does this mean that authentic Neapolitan pizza is doomed?  That we, as a community stop trying to preserve it?

Various members may have particular issues with aspects of the VPN rules, but this forum has a surprisingly well defined view of Neapolitan pizza.  No one's saying it's baked for longer than 2 minutes, no one is saying it's traditionally made with anything but 00 pizzeria flour and no experienced member posts photos of what they consider to be Neapolitan pizza that anyone ever disputes as being authentic. New members may walk in not being on the right page, but that typically ends very quickly if they stick around.  Collectively, we know the truth, and the public, for the most part, does not.

The countless fraudulent 'operators'  who market  faux Neapolitan pizza have no bearing here. The collective Neapolitan wisdom here isn't influenced by public ignorance.  We influence the public.  I've already started to see the effects of this influence beginning to manifest themselves on other websites.  Is everyone in this nation, this world, eventually going to know what authentic Neapolitan pizza is?  I doubt it. Does this forum have any chance in influencing even appreciable numbers? I don't know. But just because a restaurant owner is perverting history and falsely redefining tradition doesn't mean that we have to just roll over and accept the perversion.

The same unified and cohesive manner that this community approaches Naples can be applied to the manner in which it approaches NY.  In many ways, it already has.  John Q. (and Mary T.) forum member have a far far clearer picture of NY style pizza than the public.  But we can go considerably further.  Just because NY is inherently more difficult to classify, just because it's never really had a Marco equivalent for NY style, doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to respect the tradition. Do I pretend to be that 'Marco equivalent?' Absolutely not.  I have gaps in my knowledge of NY pizza history that I know that Marco (and Omid) doesn't mirror on the Naples side.

But I do know, just as a guy that eats a crapload of pizza, and has talked about it with countless people, that sourdough is not a part of NY style history, not a part of it's tradition.  It's my hope that, just as this forum, and the Italian authorities, have been respectful towards Marco's presentation of his area's culture, it can be respectful towards mine.

The unified Neapolitan voice of this forum didn't come about through the actions of moderators. It wasn't policed into effect.  A special sub forum wasn't formed.  It happened because knowledgeable people shared their experiences, and others resonated with that wisdom.  Truths, no matter the stature of the people stating them or the amount of pain they generate, tend to survive.  If one single person, after reading this thread, says "maybe NY style pizza is defined by the tradition, by the history, and, maybe, sourdough isn't a part of it"  then I have achieved my goal.  When you're up against entrenched beliefs and cronyism, you celebrate whatever victories you can get, however small.  I'm in this for the long haul.

Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

Arguments and reputations are defended, not truth. Truth is not about winning.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:34:40 PM by JBailey »

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #248 on: August 19, 2014, 07:39:43 PM »
What should the thickness factor be?

ruh roh !

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #249 on: August 19, 2014, 07:56:25 PM »
Arguments and reputations are defended, not truth. Truth is not about winning.
Wins, shines, prevails....whatever. You know what he meant.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #250 on: August 19, 2014, 07:58:13 PM »
What should the thickness factor be?
What have you been using?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #251 on: August 19, 2014, 08:14:35 PM »
Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

Scott,

I am sure that you are well meaning in everything you say. However, it is all beside the point, for the reasons I and others have already discussed.

As to your criticism of the dough calculating tool and my alleged refusal to do anything about it, on several occasions I have reported to the forum that we are no longer able to modify that tool, or any of the other dough calculating tools for that matter, because the design of those tools was done by Mike (Boy Hits Car) using facilities of a former employer that were no longer available to him after he left that employer. I did a search of my posts and found eight instances where I reported this matter. One example is this one: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13318.msg131743;topicseen#msg131743. Also, see Reply 1 cited in that post, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759. If you wish, I can cite the seven other posts where I discussed our inability to modify the existing tools, or you can simply do your own search.

As for the 0.10 thickness factor that so displeases you, you might be interested in the following. Recently, while I was in NYC with my son and his wife, we decided to try out a well known NY style pizzeria whose name you will immediately recognize because it was on the basis of one of your posts that we decided to visit the pizzeria in question. We ordered an 18" pizza. As it was being prepared, I peppered the pizza maker with several questions about the pizza. He told me the dough ball weight, the brand of flour, the cheese, tomatoes and pepperoni he was using and the bench flour blend that he was using. Other than the flour, he even showed me the bags and labels, etc. From the dough ball weight, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.09431. That seems pretty close to 0.10 to me. Had other customers not come into the pizzeria, I am sure that I would have gotten even more information. Because we liked the pizza, my thought was to report on the experience. But I decided against that because I did not want to reveal what I had learned and possibly gotten the pizza maker, whom I liked a lot, into trouble. Is it possible that I was given the wrong information on the dough ball weight? I suppose so, but everything else I was told was supported by evidence. And the crust thickness itself said around 0.10.

The above aside, on numerous occasions I have reported that the 0.10 thickness factor, which I had calculated years ago based on information that was provided in articles and elsewhere by Tom Lehmann and Big Dave Ostrander, was too high. I'll bet that I have reported on that matter on the forum on at least a dozen occasions. I do it on every occasion where the question arises. I even sent a private email to Tom Lehmann asking him typical dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes for the NY style. And I have reported on that exchange on several occasions. For one such example, see Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20861.msg208531;topicseen#msg208531 and the link referenced therein. And when members ask me for advice on a thickness factor to be used for the NY style, I do not suggest 0.10 but rather a value of around 0.085. I might sometimes suggest 0.10 or even a bit higher for a newbie but only until the newbie has been able to open up a dough ball to a large size, such as 18". If you do a search, you will find that all of the above is correct. I am very meticulous in everything I write and I have a pretty good memory, and I can find what I say on the forum because of that. So, if you wish, I can cite examples of what I have reported on thickness factors for the NY style in line with the above. 

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #252 on: August 19, 2014, 08:25:59 PM »
Don`t play with my Peter......the boy`s a Genius!   :D

Can book da numbers without paper or pencil.  8)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:28:28 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Essen1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #253 on: August 19, 2014, 09:33:31 PM »
Passionately speaking up for the things you believe in is acting like a grown man, Mike. You should try it some time ;D Shunning confrontation in an effort to avoid appearing juvenile is, imo, a sad way to go through life.

And, for the record, Craig and I have never stopped being friends.

Oh boy... ;D
Mike

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Online mitchjg

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #254 on: August 19, 2014, 10:08:19 PM »
I don`t know p.....I seem to make a decent Chicago thin crust pizza right here in North Carolina.  ???
At least that`s what I call it.... :)
Do I have to change it`s name now man?  :(

Maybe it's time for a NY vs. Chicago, "my pizza is better" thread!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #255 on: August 19, 2014, 10:31:25 PM »
Maybe it's time for a NY vs. Chicago, "my pizza is better" thread!
Ok Mitch!   

You win....I loose....now what man?  :-D        Let`s go share a NP pie together somewhere:)

Great pic you doctored up there!
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online jvp123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #256 on: August 19, 2014, 11:31:26 PM »
Maybe it's time for a NY vs. Chicago, "my pizza is better" thread!

The picture was hilarious - nice job!
Jeff

Offline dylandylan

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #257 on: August 20, 2014, 12:16:56 AM »
I'm just replying 'cause I want to see the Venn diagram that maps out all pizza styles.

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #258 on: August 20, 2014, 08:57:55 AM »
This has been a very interesting and entertaining thread. I  guess there  is no better place to discuss these questions than right here on pizzamaking.com.  Since we are hashing out these questions,  we may as well discuss some other "in between" fermentation methods.  Scott, would you consider it acceptable practice to add a  piece of old dough to the mix (assuming the previous batch was made with yeast)? Does that fall within the NY canon? How about a preferment?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 09:02:24 AM by tinroofrusted »

Offline slybarman

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #259 on: August 20, 2014, 10:15:17 AM »
Scott, would you consider it acceptable practice to add a  piece of old dough to the mix (assuming the previous batch was made with yeast)? Does that fall within the NY canon? How about a preferment?


Was wondering that myself as I had believed throwing in some of yesterday's dough was pretty common.


 

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