Author Topic: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?  (Read 11044 times)

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scott123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #225 on: August 18, 2014, 10:44:23 PM »
Yes it is, and that is why it rides a unicycle on the edge of the precipice while juggling pissed off chainsaws.  Talk of facts and history, or you are only talking personal opinion, which amounts to nothing in this discussion.

Tom, there's no two people on the planet more knowledgeable about the history of pizza in NY than Evelyne Slomon and Scott Wiener. I have backed up my claims with information provided by both.

Edit: corrected a misquote.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:09:07 PM by scott123 »


scott123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #226 on: August 18, 2014, 10:52:32 PM »
And, Tom, what you, and Mike, just stated, was an opinion, so by your very own definition, you contributed nothing to the discussion  ;D

Offline Essen1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #227 on: August 18, 2014, 10:54:17 PM »
Did you actually read the thread Mike? Doesn't sound like it from your comments.

You're kidding, right?
Mike

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #228 on: August 18, 2014, 11:03:56 PM »
You're kidding, right?

No. Not at all.

it was entertaining to see that TXCraig and Scott123 almost slashed their respective throats due to being passionate about a product both know very little about.

I simply asked who said (or why) SD can't be used in NYP. Point me to the part where you think I was talking about something I know very little about.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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scott123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #229 on: August 18, 2014, 11:08:39 PM »
Mike, what, exactly, is the 'product,' that neither Craig nor I 'know very little about?'  This thread is about New York style pizza and sourdough.  Are you implying that I know very little  about NY style pizza?  Or are you implying that Craig knows very little about sourdough?

Offline Essen1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #230 on: August 19, 2014, 12:38:56 AM »
No. Not at all.

I figured... ;D

I simply asked who said (or why) SD can't be used in NYP. Point me to the part where you think I was talking about something I know very little about.

Still quite the Don Quixote, I see.  Relax...I just find the whole convo here very amusing.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #231 on: August 19, 2014, 12:43:58 AM »
Mike, what, exactly, is the 'product,' that neither Craig nor I 'know very little about?'  This thread is about New York style pizza and sourdough.  Are you implying that I know very little  about NY style pizza?  Or are you implying that Craig knows very little about sourdough?

See?

One quick outside comment and you are best friends again.

You both are gown men,...act like such.


I'm out and wish everyone a good night.  8)

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline cervicornis

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2014, 01:14:31 AM »
I've read the entire thread, and I find it pretty interesting.  There's a little cattiness, to be sure, but nothing offensive.  The only thing I dislike more than overtly rude and offensive behavior in an online forum is unnecessary moderation, so I appreciate the fact that adults are able to have a passionate debate about something they care about.  I see a lot of passion in the back and forth that is going on here, which is great.  I'm learning something about NY-style pizza, which is what led me to this forum in the first place.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I know next to nothing about pizza and its history, compared to many posting here.

What is clear to me, though, is that Scott and Craig are unable to resolve this debate because there is a philosophical element at play, which neither of them have really addressed.  I understand what Craig is asking; it's a simple and straightforward question.  I also understand why Scott is refusing to answer the question under the terms that Craig has set, because (if I may put words in his mouth) it is NOT as simple and straightforward a question as it might first appear. 

I bring up the example of photography, which is a subject that I do know something about.  As almost everyone is aware, the practice and art of photography is undergoing a monumental change with the advent of the digital camera and powerful computer processing.  There are many "purists" who decry the modern methods that have practically rendered film and darkroom techniques as relics of the past.  There are those that have switched over to the newer methods or may dabble in both, and then there is an ever-growing group of photographic artists who have never, ever, touched a film camera or set foot in a darkroom. 

These different groups squabble and argue about photography like you wouldn't believe.  Shocking, I know.  Like pizza making, these debates involve both the process and the end result.

Now, think of a photograph that made an impact on you.  I can think of several.  Do you know if it was shot on film, or how it was processed?  Do you care?

Digital photography has advanced to the point that no one, not even a trained "professional" can determine the difference between a very high quality digital print vs. a film/darkroom-processed print.  Not with the unaided human eye, at least.  There are unique attributes to each method, but it is possible to produce two identical photographs, digital and film, with absolutely no objective differences. 

If we take Craig's pizza question and apply it to this example, the answer becomes a little muddy.  Some would argue that there is absolutely no difference between the two photographs and that they are one in the same.  The only thing that matters is the final result; not the process.  Yes, a sourdough starter can be used in NY-style pizza.

There are others who believe that the process does matter. To them, the process is part of the final result, even if some people fail to understand, appreciate, or agree with this line of thinking.  Photography is art, and the process matters.  End of story.

I believe pizza is art.  I think many of the heavy-hitters on this forum would agree. 

And that is where I find my own answer to this question.  In art, the process does matter, but there is also room for creativity and interpretation on an individual level.  Some may cringe at the thought, and others accept it as obvious.  Until there exists a ruling body that establishes a set of rules like the AVPN, is one line of thinking any more correct than the other?  I don't believe so, if pizza is art.     

 




It's evolution, baby

scott123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #233 on: August 19, 2014, 02:05:07 AM »
You both are gown men,...act like such.

Passionately speaking up for the things you believe in is acting like a grown man, Mike. You should try it some time ;D Shunning confrontation in an effort to avoid appearing juvenile is, imo, a sad way to go through life.

And, for the record, Craig and I have never stopped being friends.


Offline JBailey

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #234 on: August 19, 2014, 03:34:37 AM »
acting like a grown man
...
appearing juvenile


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #235 on: August 19, 2014, 08:52:16 AM »
Still quite the Don Quixote, I see.  Relax...I just find the whole convo here very amusing.

Maybe, but you are no Sancho.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #236 on: August 19, 2014, 09:14:39 AM »
appearing juvenile

Perhaps John, though I would suggest to you that a member with 57 posts calling two other members, with a combined 19,000 posts, juvenile might not be the most mature action.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #237 on: August 19, 2014, 09:53:42 AM »
One quick outside comment and you are best friends again.

Seconding Scott's comment, we never stopped being friends. We agree on a lot more than we disagree, and when we disagree we don't back down.

What you did, Mike, was like coming across two brothers beating the crap out of each other like brothers do and telling them that their mother is a whore. It doesn't mean they stop caring about whatever they were fighting over when the focus of their immediate attention shifts quickly to you.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 09:55:48 AM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #238 on: August 19, 2014, 09:57:01 AM »
I think this thread has done just fine until this "maturity" and "mouthing off" bs stuff is now trying to be brought in the game.

You know what I always say....if you don't like the conversation then jus simply turn the page man. Go talk about something you enjoy; it's a big forum.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #239 on: August 19, 2014, 10:09:52 AM »
Seconding Scott's comment, we never stopped being friends. We agree on a lot more than we disagree, and when we disagree we don't back down.

What you did, Mike, was like coming across two brothers beating the crap out of each other like brothers do and telling them that their mother is a whore. It doesn't mean they stop caring about whatever they were fighting over when the focus of their immediate attention shifts quickly to you.

I knew you liked momma jokes.
Josh

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #240 on: August 19, 2014, 10:14:00 AM »
I knew you liked momma jokes.

They have a time and a place. The key is knowing the right time and the right place so you don't get the snot beat out of you.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline quixoteQ

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #241 on: August 19, 2014, 10:31:16 AM »
They have a time and a place. The key is knowing the right time and the right place so you don't get the snot beat out of you.

Truer words have rarely been said.
Josh


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #242 on: August 19, 2014, 11:53:56 AM »
Since we have only been able to identify one pizzeria using a natural starter to make a NY style pizza and calling that pizza a NY style, and Norma may at some point be the second such pizzeria, and whether Scott acknowledges either because they are not in NY, one might ask why not exclude a sourdough version from the NY style of pizza? It isn't as though pizza operators specializing in the NY style are tripping all over each other to make sourdough versions. On the other hand, the VPN chose to be inclusive and to allow both non-sourdough and sourdough versions under the same umbrella and under the same set of rules for the Neapolitan style. And both sides have coexisted peacefully. And, if one looks at the numbers, there are perhaps more pizza operators in the U.S. specializing in the Neapolitan style who are using natural starters than there are in Naples, and doing so successfully and profitably. I might also note that standards don't guarantee compliance. Not everyone in Naples follows the VPN rules. Some thumb their noses at the VPN and accuse them of being motivated by profits and politics. Even Marco has found faults with the VPN rules. Even in the U.S., the American arm of the VPN has its detractors, and they are quite often vocal about their feelings.

As I see it, Craig's position is likely to eventually prevail. If a NY style pizza operator decides all of a sudden to make NY style pizzas using a natural starter, that operator will continue to call its pizzas NY style. And, no one is going to be able to stop them, no matter how passionate they feel on the matter. Once the genie is out of the bottle, the game is over. One might even be able to argue that the genie has already been let out of the bottle, by Vito's in LA. whether Scott will accept that or not. And Norma may be next. And maybe Williamsburg Pizza at some point if it hasn't already done so. 

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #243 on: August 19, 2014, 12:03:41 PM »
Lets close the book on this by simply coming out for our pizza at THE SMILING WITH HOPE BAKERY to get a pie baked by a guy who grew up in the NJ/NYC pizza scene, bakes at 560 degrees in original 1970's blodgett 1000 ovens, uses bromated flour, commercial yeast, and people from NY,NJ, and all over the World like it  :-D  Walter
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 12:07:40 PM by waltertore »
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Offline Donjo911

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #244 on: August 19, 2014, 12:19:51 PM »
Lets close the book on this by simply coming out for our pizza at THE SMILING WITH HOPE BAKERY to get a pie baked by a guy who grew up in the NJ/NYC pizza scene, bakes at 560 degrees in original 1970's blodgett 1000 ovens, uses bromated flour, commercial yeast, and people from NY,NJ, and all over the World like it  :-D  Walter


I missed a few days of this thread.  There was a point when I thought there might be 57 child boards. One for each state; DC, and territories and air & ocean space.  Because, it's not NY pizza unless it was made inside of NY - regardless of ingredients :-D
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

scott123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #245 on: August 19, 2014, 06:34:46 PM »
If a NY style pizza operator decides all of a sudden to make NY style pizzas using a natural starter, that operator will continue to call its pizzas NY style. And, no one is going to be able to stop them, no matter how passionate they feel on the matter.

Peter, how many pizzerias sell 'Neapolitan' pizza that is absolutely nothing like  real Neapolitan pizza?  Does this mean that authentic Neapolitan pizza is doomed?  That we, as a community stop trying to preserve it?

Various members may have particular issues with aspects of the VPN rules, but this forum has a surprisingly well defined view of Neapolitan pizza.  No one's saying it's baked for longer than 2 minutes, no one is saying it's traditionally made with anything but 00 pizzeria flour and no experienced member posts photos of what they consider to be Neapolitan pizza that anyone ever disputes as being authentic. New members may walk in not being on the right page, but that typically ends very quickly if they stick around.  Collectively, we know the truth, and the public, for the most part, does not.

The countless fraudulent 'operators'  who market  faux Neapolitan pizza have no bearing here. The collective Neapolitan wisdom here isn't influenced by public ignorance.  We influence the public.  I've already started to see the effects of this influence beginning to manifest themselves on other websites.  Is everyone in this nation, this world, eventually going to know what authentic Neapolitan pizza is?  I doubt it. Does this forum have any chance in influencing even appreciable numbers? I don't know. But just because a restaurant owner is perverting history and falsely redefining tradition doesn't mean that we have to just roll over and accept the perversion.

The same unified and cohesive manner that this community approaches Naples can be applied to the manner in which it approaches NY.  In many ways, it already has.  John Q. (and Mary T.) forum member have a far far clearer picture of NY style pizza than the public.  But we can go considerably further.  Just because NY is inherently more difficult to classify, just because it's never really had a Marco equivalent for NY style, doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to respect the tradition. Do I pretend to be that 'Marco equivalent?' Absolutely not.  I have gaps in my knowledge of NY pizza history that I know that Marco (and Omid) doesn't mirror on the Naples side.

But I do know, just as a guy that eats a crapload of pizza, and has talked about it with countless people, that sourdough is not a part of NY style history, not a part of it's tradition.  It's my hope that, just as this forum, and the Italian authorities, have been respectful towards Marco's presentation of his area's culture, it can be respectful towards mine.

The unified Neapolitan voice of this forum didn't come about through the actions of moderators. It wasn't policed into effect.  A special sub forum wasn't formed.  It happened because knowledgeable people shared their experiences, and others resonated with that wisdom.  Truths, no matter the stature of the people stating them or the amount of pain they generate, tend to survive.  If one single person, after reading this thread, says "maybe NY style pizza is defined by the tradition, by the history, and, maybe, sourdough isn't a part of it"  then I have achieved my goal.  When you're up against entrenched beliefs and cronyism, you celebrate whatever victories you can get, however small.  I'm in this for the long haul.

Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

Offline cylint

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #246 on: August 19, 2014, 07:18:23 PM »
Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

What should the thickness factor be?

Offline JBailey

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #247 on: August 19, 2014, 07:30:41 PM »
Peter, how many pizzerias sell 'Neapolitan' pizza that is absolutely nothing like  real Neapolitan pizza?  Does this mean that authentic Neapolitan pizza is doomed?  That we, as a community stop trying to preserve it?

Various members may have particular issues with aspects of the VPN rules, but this forum has a surprisingly well defined view of Neapolitan pizza.  No one's saying it's baked for longer than 2 minutes, no one is saying it's traditionally made with anything but 00 pizzeria flour and no experienced member posts photos of what they consider to be Neapolitan pizza that anyone ever disputes as being authentic. New members may walk in not being on the right page, but that typically ends very quickly if they stick around.  Collectively, we know the truth, and the public, for the most part, does not.

The countless fraudulent 'operators'  who market  faux Neapolitan pizza have no bearing here. The collective Neapolitan wisdom here isn't influenced by public ignorance.  We influence the public.  I've already started to see the effects of this influence beginning to manifest themselves on other websites.  Is everyone in this nation, this world, eventually going to know what authentic Neapolitan pizza is?  I doubt it. Does this forum have any chance in influencing even appreciable numbers? I don't know. But just because a restaurant owner is perverting history and falsely redefining tradition doesn't mean that we have to just roll over and accept the perversion.

The same unified and cohesive manner that this community approaches Naples can be applied to the manner in which it approaches NY.  In many ways, it already has.  John Q. (and Mary T.) forum member have a far far clearer picture of NY style pizza than the public.  But we can go considerably further.  Just because NY is inherently more difficult to classify, just because it's never really had a Marco equivalent for NY style, doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to respect the tradition. Do I pretend to be that 'Marco equivalent?' Absolutely not.  I have gaps in my knowledge of NY pizza history that I know that Marco (and Omid) doesn't mirror on the Naples side.

But I do know, just as a guy that eats a crapload of pizza, and has talked about it with countless people, that sourdough is not a part of NY style history, not a part of it's tradition.  It's my hope that, just as this forum, and the Italian authorities, have been respectful towards Marco's presentation of his area's culture, it can be respectful towards mine.

The unified Neapolitan voice of this forum didn't come about through the actions of moderators. It wasn't policed into effect.  A special sub forum wasn't formed.  It happened because knowledgeable people shared their experiences, and others resonated with that wisdom.  Truths, no matter the stature of the people stating them or the amount of pain they generate, tend to survive.  If one single person, after reading this thread, says "maybe NY style pizza is defined by the tradition, by the history, and, maybe, sourdough isn't a part of it"  then I have achieved my goal.  When you're up against entrenched beliefs and cronyism, you celebrate whatever victories you can get, however small.  I'm in this for the long haul.

Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.

Arguments and reputations are defended, not truth. Truth is not about winning.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:34:40 PM by JBailey »

Online woodmakesitgood

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #248 on: August 19, 2014, 07:39:43 PM »
What should the thickness factor be?

ruh roh !
Charles

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #249 on: August 19, 2014, 07:56:25 PM »
Arguments and reputations are defended, not truth. Truth is not about winning.
Wins, shines, prevails....whatever. You know what he meant.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"