Author Topic: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?  (Read 10008 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #250 on: August 19, 2014, 07:58:13 PM »
What should the thickness factor be?
What have you been using?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #251 on: August 19, 2014, 08:14:35 PM »
Look at the .1 recommended thickness factor on the dough calculator tool that you know darn well makes my blood boil and that you've refused to do anything about.  How many members, at this present moment, believe that NY style should be .1?  How many believed it last year?  It may take years for this community to see the light on this issue, but the truth always wins.
Scott,

I am sure that you are well meaning in everything you say. However, it is all beside the point, for the reasons I and others have already discussed.

As to your criticism of the dough calculating tool and my alleged refusal to do anything about it, on several occasions I have reported to the forum that we are no longer able to modify that tool, or any of the other dough calculating tools for that matter, because the design of those tools was done by Mike (Boy Hits Car) using facilities of a former employer that were no longer available to him after he left that employer. I did a search of my posts and found eight instances where I reported this matter. One example is this one: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13318.msg131743;topicseen#msg131743. Also, see Reply 1 cited in that post, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759. If you wish, I can cite the seven other posts where I discussed our inability to modify the existing tools, or you can simply do your own search.

As for the 0.10 thickness factor that so displeases you, you might be interested in the following. Recently, while I was in NYC with my son and his wife, we decided to try out a well known NY style pizzeria whose name you will immediately recognize because it was on the basis of one of your posts that we decided to visit the pizzeria in question. We ordered an 18" pizza. As it was being prepared, I peppered the pizza maker with several questions about the pizza. He told me the dough ball weight, the brand of flour, the cheese, tomatoes and pepperoni he was using and the bench flour blend that he was using. Other than the flour, he even showed me the bags and labels, etc. From the dough ball weight, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.09431. That seems pretty close to 0.10 to me. Had other customers not come into the pizzeria, I am sure that I would have gotten even more information. Because we liked the pizza, my thought was to report on the experience. But I decided against that because I did not want to reveal what I had learned and possibly gotten the pizza maker, whom I liked a lot, into trouble. Is it possible that I was given the wrong information on the dough ball weight? I suppose so, but everything else I was told was supported by evidence. And the crust thickness itself said around 0.10.

The above aside, on numerous occasions I have reported that the 0.10 thickness factor, which I had calculated years ago based on information that was provided in articles and elsewhere by Tom Lehmann and Big Dave Ostrander, was too high. I'll bet that I have reported on that matter on the forum on at least a dozen occasions. I do it on every occasion where the question arises. I even sent a private email to Tom Lehmann asking him typical dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes for the NY style. And I have reported on that exchange on several occasions. For one such example, see Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20861.msg208531;topicseen#msg208531 and the link referenced therein. And when members ask me for advice on a thickness factor to be used for the NY style, I do not suggest 0.10 but rather a value of around 0.085. I might sometimes suggest 0.10 or even a bit higher for a newbie but only until the newbie has been able to open up a dough ball to a large size, such as 18". If you do a search, you will find that all of the above is correct. I am very meticulous in everything I write and I have a pretty good memory, and I can find what I say on the forum because of that. So, if you wish, I can cite examples of what I have reported on thickness factors for the NY style in line with the above. 

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #252 on: August 19, 2014, 08:25:59 PM »
Don`t play with my Peter......the boy`s a Genius!   :D

Can book da numbers without paper or pencil.  8)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:28:28 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Essen1

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #253 on: August 19, 2014, 09:33:31 PM »
Passionately speaking up for the things you believe in is acting like a grown man, Mike. You should try it some time ;D Shunning confrontation in an effort to avoid appearing juvenile is, imo, a sad way to go through life.

And, for the record, Craig and I have never stopped being friends.

Oh boy... ;D
Mike

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #254 on: August 19, 2014, 10:08:19 PM »
I don`t know p.....I seem to make a decent Chicago thin crust pizza right here in North Carolina.  ???
At least that`s what I call it.... :)
Do I have to change it`s name now man?  :(

Maybe it's time for a NY vs. Chicago, "my pizza is better" thread!
Mitch

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #255 on: August 19, 2014, 10:31:25 PM »
Maybe it's time for a NY vs. Chicago, "my pizza is better" thread!
Ok Mitch!   

You win....I loose....now what man?  :-D        Let`s go share a NP pie together somewhere:)

Great pic you doctored up there!
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Offline jvp123

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #256 on: August 19, 2014, 11:31:26 PM »
Maybe it's time for a NY vs. Chicago, "my pizza is better" thread!

The picture was hilarious - nice job!
Jeff

Offline dylandylan

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #257 on: August 20, 2014, 12:16:56 AM »
I'm just replying 'cause I want to see the Venn diagram that maps out all pizza styles.

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #258 on: August 20, 2014, 08:57:55 AM »
This has been a very interesting and entertaining thread. I  guess there  is no better place to discuss these questions than right here on pizzamaking.com.  Since we are hashing out these questions,  we may as well discuss some other "in between" fermentation methods.  Scott, would you consider it acceptable practice to add a  piece of old dough to the mix (assuming the previous batch was made with yeast)? Does that fall within the NY canon? How about a preferment?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 09:02:24 AM by tinroofrusted »


Offline slybarman

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #259 on: August 20, 2014, 10:15:17 AM »
Scott, would you consider it acceptable practice to add a  piece of old dough to the mix (assuming the previous batch was made with yeast)? Does that fall within the NY canon? How about a preferment?


Was wondering that myself as I had believed throwing in some of yesterday's dough was pretty common.

Offline pdog

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #260 on: August 20, 2014, 01:28:22 PM »
I don`t know p.....I seem to make a decent Chicago thin crust pizza right here in North Carolina.  ???
At least that`s what I call it.... :)
Do I have to change it`s name now man?  :(

Never change Bob! - You can call your pizza what every you want and makes you happy.  If memory serves me correctly from what I have seen on here you are selling yourself short with the term "decent."  I would give yourself more credit - P
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 01:44:54 PM by pdog »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #261 on: August 20, 2014, 02:32:56 PM »
[quote author=pdog link=topic=33547.msg334039#msg334039 date=1408556511

As Neapolitan pizza continues to grow in popularity I hope that the style does not suffer the same fate as the NY pizza.  NY pizza has become a marketing term without any care to the heritage and discipline. 

Just my thoughts.
[/quote]


Oh that is already rampant p. You should see what the North Carolina Neapolitan Pizza Makers are getting away with around here.
On second thought...you don`t wanna see that type of butchery...it`s painful man, it really is.   :'(
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #262 on: August 20, 2014, 07:14:11 PM »
Back to Williamburg Pizza and whether it is making a NY style pizza using sourdough, I found about a dozen reports that, instead of using the expression "homemade yeast", instead used the expression "home-cultured" yeast. The reports are basically the same but an example is this one:

http://www.grubstreet.com/2013/12/fatty-cue-brisket-cook-off.html

Peter

Online jsaras

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #263 on: August 20, 2014, 07:42:54 PM »
"Culture" doesn't apply to dry yeast. 
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #264 on: August 20, 2014, 07:46:47 PM »
"Culture" doesn't apply to dry yeast.
Jonas,

It might. For example, see this product: http://www.agugiarofigna.com/downloads/molino/naturkraftENG/pizza.pdf

I stumbled across the product in this article:

http://www.starchefs.com/cook/features/fermentation/pizza_crust

One of our members, bakeshack (Marlon), tested it, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=24434.msg247660#msg247660

Peter



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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #265 on: August 20, 2014, 08:56:34 PM »
A culture can be dry. It also doesn't have to contain yeast. That's the definition of Type III SD.

I think the naturkraft product is a "cultured flour" similar to these Lallemand/Bocker products: http://www.lallemandbaking.com/our-products/bakery_cultures/cultured-flours/
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Offline norma427

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #266 on: August 20, 2014, 09:21:31 PM »
I don't know if this is the same Nino Coniglio that is a pizzaiolo at Williamsburg Pizza, but there are two comments from Nino Conigilio in this article. 

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/enriched-white-flour/

This is what is said the second comment.  Nino Conglio says he copied and pasted part of his comment, but says to either email him, or leave a respsonse on the article.  I wonder how to find out Nino Congiglio's email address in the article to see if it is the pizzaiolo at Williamsburg Pizza. 


NinoConiglio • 2 years ago
Now for the second Part 
Natural yeast
Im gonna copy and paste something now cause im not a writer i dont have the paticents for it and im not good at It sooooo
P.S. this artical is half BS as well meaning its only half the story. Every hardworking American in this country whether you work 12hours a day or none has the time to make bread trust me for those who want more info email me or respond to this.
Of course the sourdough fermentation of flour from whole wheat and 
rye to make bread has strong traditions in several countries of the 
world, whether the breads are leavened, oven-baked loaves or flat 
leavened breads cooked over hot coals. This method is time-consuming 
and–even more problematic for the modern age–requires the careful 
maintenance of a culture medium, the sourdough starter, which is a 
stable relationship of a family of wild yeast fungi and several strains 
of local lactobacilli. Rather like the carefully nurtured cultures and 
caves that produce delectable fermented cheeses, sourdough bread 
cultures are a product of place and the people who care for them and use
them. They are all different, produce flavors and rates of fermentation
peculiar and beloved unto themselves, require temperatures and other 
conditions known intimately and respected by the baker. Commercial 
baker’s yeast, on the other hand, is a monoculture of just one single 
variety of yeast, grown to be a consistently fast and vigorous 
replicator and producer of carbon dioxide, but incapable of developing 
grain flavors (the lactobacilli are best at that). Sourdough cultures 
produce reliably leavened and complexly flavored breads via the 
alchemical communion of the culture microorganisms, flour, water, fire 
and time–plenty of time.
Michael Gaenzle, a cereal microbiologist now at the University of 
Alberta, Canada, has suggested that sourdough cultures are in fact so 
intimately connected with the people who use them that they form a 
mutually supportive and sustaining relationship.7 That is, 
the microorganisms are part of you (and come from you) and so the bread 
you ferment with them is tailormade to nourish and support especially 
you. You bolster your own health by eating bread cultured with your 
domestic friendly “beasties.” This “home advantage” is an obvious 
traditional benefit conferred on newly married daughters whose mothers 
included a barrel of sourdough in the wedding dowry to start their new 
households–to ensure their daughters’ health and vigor (especially since
they were soon likely to bear children) and provide them extra strength
in their new positions in life.
The traditional sourdough process reliably neutralizes the 
anti-nutrients in the cereal grains as the flour is kept moist and 
acidic for many hours (or days). Ongoing research in cereal microbiology
is investigating some preliminary evidence that the traditional 
sourdough method may also sever the bonds of the “toxic” peptides in 
wheat gluten responsible for the celiac reaction and neutralize them as 
well.8 In short, certain lactobacilli in a sourdough culture 
acting on wheat flour for a 24-hour period achieved nearly complete 
digestion of the peptides. When bread made with these species was fed to
recovered celiac patients for two days, the patients showed no signs of
increased intestinal permeability that were found among recovered 
celiac patients who consumed the same amount of regular bread over the 
same time period. These intriguing results suggest that wheat (or rye) 
flour that has undergone 24 hours of culture fermentation may render the
“toxic” peptides harmless and allow the bread to be safely eaten by 
those with celiac disease, although studies of celiac patients consuming
sourdough breads for a much longer period of time will be needed to 
confirm this.
In the study cited, test bread was made with fermented wheat flour 
and the remainder of the flour from the non-gluten grains millet, 
buckwheat and oats. The recipe does not resemble a classically prepared 
sourdough bread which is traditionally made in a building-up process of 
stages; some of the flour will have fermented for as long as two or 
three days, whereas some of it for only several hours prior to baking, 
during the period when the culture microorganisms experience exponential
growth rate. The result of breaking down gluten completely is that it 
can no longer raise the dough!
Deviation from Rational Principles
Another outcome of the mass production of industrial bakery products 
has been to create grotesque taste standards and expectations that have 
no connection to an honest ingredient. Commercial cereal products have
become health hazards because of everything from grain hybridization to
flour adulteration to inadequate, inappropriate and violent processing. 
They also are aesthetically repugnant, which is just as important a 
factor to consider when talking about the nourishment of food.
Consider this prophetic statement by Rudolf Steiner in an address to 
members of the Anthroposophical Society on June 20, 1924 and published 
in Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture: “. . .
nder the influence of our modern philosophy of materialism, it is 
agriculture–believe it or not–that has deviated furthest from any truly 
rational principles. Indeed, not many people know that during the last 
few decades the agricultural products on which our life depends have 
degenerated extremely rapidly. In this present time of transition. . . 
it is not only human moral development that is degenerating, but also 
what human activity has made of the Earth and what lies just above the 
Earth. . . Even materialistic farmers nowadays. . . can calculate in how
many decades their products will have degenerated to such an extent 
that they no longer serve as human nourishment. It will certainly be 
within this century.”
Grains comprise a wholesome category of foods that must be respected
for the complexity of nutrient contributions they can make to the human 
diet, and must always be prepared with care to maximize those nutrients’
availability as well as neutralize naturally occurring antinutrients. 
Resources also exist to reintroduce ancient grains, such as emmer and 
einkorn wheats, into our food supply and diversify cereal choices with 
alternatives to the few overly hybridized cultivars largely in use 
today.
Growing and preparing food ought to be a sacramental service. It 
should not be based on violence, as is most of modern agriculture, 
factory animal farms and factories that produce finished food items like
bread. All those processes are based on “conquering” the food item and 
forcing it into a form defined by commerce. There are no more subtle 
energies in these debased foods, let alone mere measureable nutrients or
soul-satisfying taste and vitality.
Food is holy. Its preparation and enjoyment constitute a daily opportunity to experience happiness, satisfaction and gratitude.
rye to make bread has strong traditions in several countries of the 
world, whether the breads are leavened, oven-baked loaves or flat 
leavened breads cooked over hot coals. This method is time-consuming 
and–even more problematic for the modern age–requires the careful 
maintenance of a culture medium, the sourdough starter, which is a 
stable relationship of a family of wild yeast fungi and several strains 
of local lactobacilli. Rather like the carefully nurtured cultures and 
caves that produce delectable fermented cheeses, sourdough bread 
cultures are a product of place and the people who care for them and use
them. They are all different, produce flavors and rates of fermentation
peculiar and beloved unto themselves, require temperatures and other 
conditions known intimately and respected by the baker. Commercial 
baker’s yeast, on the other hand, is a monoculture of just one single 
variety of yeast, grown to be a consistently fast and vigorous 
replicator and producer of carbon dioxide, but incapable of developing 
grain flavors (the lactobacilli are best at that). Sourdough cultures 
produce reliably leavened and complexly flavored breads via the 
alchemical communion of the culture microorganisms, flour, water, fire 
and time–plenty of time.
Michael Gaenzle, a cereal microbiologist now at the University of 
Alberta, Canada, has suggested that sourdough cultures are in fact so 
intimately connected with the people who use them that they form a 
mutually supportive and sustaining relationship.7 That is, 
the microorganisms are part of you (and come from you) and so the bread 
you ferment with them is tailormade to nourish and support especially 
you. You bolster your own health by eating bread cultured with your 
domestic friendly “beasties.” This “home advantage” is an obvious 
traditional benefit conferred on newly married daughters whose mothers 
included a barrel of sourdough in the wedding dowry to start their new 
households–to ensure their daughters’ health and vigor (especially since
they were soon likely to bear children) and provide them extra strength
in their new positions in life.
The traditional sourdough process reliably neutralizes the 
anti-nutrients in the cereal grains as the flour is kept moist and 
acidic for many hours (or days). Ongoing research in cereal microbiology
is investigating some preliminary evidence that the traditional 
sourdough method may also sever the bonds of the “toxic” peptides in 
wheat gluten responsible for the celiac reaction and neutralize them as 
well.8 In short, certain lactobacilli in a sourdough culture 
acting on wheat flour for a 24-hour period achieved nearly complete 
digestion of the peptides. When bread made with these species was fed to
recovered celiac patients for two days, the patients showed no signs of
increased intestinal permeability that were found among recovered 
celiac patients who consumed the same amount of regular bread over the 
same time period. These intriguing results suggest that wheat (or rye) 
flour that has undergone 24 hours of culture fermentation may render the
“toxic” peptides harmless and allow the bread to be safely eaten by 
those with celiac disease, although studies of celiac patients consuming
sourdough breads for a much longer period of time will be needed to 
confirm this.
In the study cited, test bread was made with fermented wheat flour 
and the remainder of the flour from the non-gluten grains millet, 
buckwheat and oats. The recipe does not resemble a classically prepared 
sourdough bread which is traditionally made in a building-up process of 
stages; some of the flour will have fermented for as long as two or 
three days, whereas some of it for only several hours prior to baking, 
during the period when the culture microorganisms experience exponential
growth rate. The result of breaking down gluten completely is that it 
can no longer raise the dough!
Deviation from Rational Principles
Another outcome of the mass production of industrial bakery products 
has been to create grotesque taste standards and expectations that have 
no connection to an honest ingredient. Commercial cereal products have
become health hazards because of everything from grain hybridization to
flour adulteration to inadequate, inappropriate and violent processing. 
They also are aesthetically repugnant, which is just as important a 
factor to consider when talking about the nourishment of food.
Consider this prophetic statement by Rudolf Steiner in an address to 
members of the Anthroposophical Society on June 20, 1924 and published 
in Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture: “. . .
nder the influence of our modern philosophy of materialism, it is 
agriculture–believe it or not–that has deviated furthest from any truly 
rational principles. Indeed, not many people know that during the last 
few decades the agricultural products on which our life depends have 
degenerated extremely rapidly. In this present time of transition. . . 
it is not only human moral development that is degenerating, but also 
what human activity has made of the Earth and what lies just above the 
Earth. . . Even materialistic farmers nowadays. . . can calculate in how
many decades their products will have degenerated to such an extent 
that they no longer serve as human nourishment. It will certainly be 
within this century.”
Grains comprise a wholesome category of foods that must be respected
for the complexity of nutrient contributions they can make to the human 
diet, and must always be prepared with care to maximize those nutrients’
availability as well as neutralize naturally occurring antinutrients. 
Resources also exist to reintroduce ancient grains, such as emmer and 
einkorn wheats, into our food supply and diversify cereal choices with 
alternatives to the few overly hybridized cultivars largely in use 
today.
Growing and preparing food ought to be a sacramental service. It 
should not be based on violence, as is most of modern agriculture, 
factory animal farms and factories that produce finished food items like
bread. All those processes are based on “conquering” the food item and 
forcing it into a form defined by commerce. There are no more subtle 
energies in these debased foods, let alone mere measureable nutrients or
soul-satisfying taste and vitality.
Food is holy. Its preparation and enjoyment constitute a daily opportunity to experience happiness, satisfaction and gratitude.

Norma


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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #267 on: August 20, 2014, 09:28:33 PM »
That came from here: http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/against-the-grain/

About halfway down, under the heading "Real Bread."
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline norma427

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #268 on: August 20, 2014, 09:34:57 PM »
That came from here: http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/against-the-grain/

About halfway down, under the heading "Real Bread."

Thanks Craig.  How did you find that so fast?

Norma

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #269 on: August 20, 2014, 10:00:32 PM »
Thanks Craig.  How did you find that so fast?

Norma

I searched for one entire sentence out of it at Google.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #270 on: August 20, 2014, 10:24:33 PM »
If the bacteria and yeasts on and in our body do not contribute to our health and well being, they damn well should.

Offline norma427

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Re: No sourdough in NY pizza? Says who?
« Reply #271 on: August 20, 2014, 10:39:09 PM »
I searched for one entire sentence out of it at Google.

Great thinking Craig!  ;D  Maybe that tip will help me someday in my searches.

Norma