Author Topic: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)  (Read 835 times)

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Offline scott123

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A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« on: August 17, 2014, 03:18:30 AM »
Out of respect for the history of New York style pizza and the manner in which that history has defined it, I will be, from this day forward, referring to New York style pizza leavened using starter as 'New York Natural.'

Use it, don't use it. I don't care.  Expect to be hearing it a lot from me in the future, though  ;D


Offline shuboyje

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 10:02:12 AM »
I've been thinking about getting a starter back up and going, and think I will give this a try solely due to the claims that have been made that it will not brown.  It peaked my interest.
-Jeff

Offline mitchjg

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2014, 10:35:09 AM »
Out of respect for the history of New York style pizza and the manner in which that history has defined it, I will be, from this day forward, referring to New York style pizza leavened using starter as 'New York Natural.'

Use it, don't use it. I don't care.  Expect to be hearing it a lot from me in the future, though  ;D

Scott:

Given the contention in the other thread, I would like to ask a clarifying question.  I see the words "referring to New York style pizza leavened using starter as 'New York Natural.'

I am not sure if the lack of capitalization in the word "style" has any significance.

Regardless, I infer from your statement that you classify New York Natural to be a type of New York Style pizza.  It's a New York Style pizza.  It is leavened with starter.  Therefore, it is New York Natural. 

Is my interpretation correct?

Thanks.

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 12:29:18 PM »
I've been thinking about getting a starter back up and going, and think I will give this a try solely due to the claims that have been made that it will not brown.

Sounds good, Jeff :)  Since acid is a browning inhibitor, I'm guessing that the more sourness you produce, the more issues you will have with browning- and vice versa.

You can see this browning inhibition, I believe, in naturally leavened Neapolitan, by the slightly greater leoparding contrast than in baker's yeast Neapolitan. Cosmetically, I personally find it an improvement.

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 12:34:02 PM »
Regardless, I infer from your statement that you classify New York Natural to be a type of New York Style pizza.  It's a New York Style pizza.  It is leavened with starter.  Therefore, it is New York Natural.

New York Style is one style. New York Natural Style is another style.  NYN is an offshoot of NY, but an entirely new style. Kind of like Judaism and Christianity ;)

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 02:02:55 PM »
New York Style is one style. New York Natural Style is another style.  NYN is an offshoot of NY, but an entirely new style. Kind of like Judaism and Christianity ;)

How about this; from now on New York Natural is one style and New York Unnatural is the other.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2014, 02:06:50 PM »
Sounds good, Jeff :)  Since acid is a browning inhibitor, I'm guessing that the more sourness you produce, the more issues you will have with browning- and vice versa.

Who are the people creating meaningful sourness in their dough with SD? All I seem to see is people asking how to do it because they can't.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2014, 03:18:50 PM »
New York Style is one style. New York Natural Style is another style.  NYN is an offshoot of NY, but an entirely new style. Kind of like Judaism and Christianity ;)

I thought it was too good to be true.  That is not how the sentence reads but your answer is consistent with your previous positions. 

Thank you for clarifying. 

Addendum: I have a few more questions, also to understand and clarify things.

In your words, we have  NY Style Pizza and a NY Natural Style.  I am sure you are familiar with Venn Diagrams.  Are the New York Natural Styles inside of the NY Style circle?  Are they not intersecting?  If the Natural Style is not encompassed by the NY Style, then are they both encompassed by a larger circle  (other than "Pizza")? 

And, what about Coal Fired Pizza?  Is that NY Style?  Is NY Style an offshoot of Coal Fired?  Is one encompassing the other in a Venn diagram?

Are there other pizzas that are styles that could be thought of by someone as NY Style that you would like to better define?  How would they fit in?

It is so hard to parse out "I will be, from this day forward, referring to New York style pizza leavened using starter as 'New York Natural.'" the way you described.  i.e. This sentence says it is a NY style pizza.  It says the pizza is leavened using starter.  But then, you told me it is not a NY style pizza. 

So, I am asking for the Venn diagram(s) because it should help create the clarity.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 04:19:45 PM by mitchjg »

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2014, 04:38:48 PM »
Who are the people creating meaningful sourness in their dough with SD? All I seem to see is people asking how to do it because they can't.


Off the top of my head:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32613.msg325943#msg325943

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21530.msg234499#msg234499

Also, JD didn't specify what flavor the SD was producing that made him unable to create a classic NY style pizza, but, that, imo, could easily be sourness as well.

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2014, 04:45:26 PM »
So, I am asking for the Venn diagram(s) because it should help create the clarity.

A Venn diagram?  Let me get right on that, Mitch!  :-D

Let me make this simple.  One circle for coal, one circle for NY, another circle for NYN. Separate entities.

Unless your asking about common attributes/ingredient. They're both round. They both use flour. They both have salt.  So, if you wanted to draw two circles and put round, flour and salt inside them, that's fine, but the natural leavening is in the non intersecting portion of the NYN circle.





Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2014, 04:47:04 PM »
A Venn diagram?  Let me get right on that, Mitch!  :-D

Let me make this simple.  One circle for coal, one circle for NYUN, another circle for NYN. Separate entities.

Unless your asking about common attributes/ingredient. They're both round. They both use flour. They both have salt.  So, if you wanted to draw two circles and put round, flour and salt inside them, that's fine, but the natural leavening is in the non intersecting portion of the NYN circle.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 04:56:02 PM »
A Venn diagram?  Let me get right on that, Mitch!  :-D

Let me make this simple.  One circle for coal, one circle for NY, another circle for NYN. Separate entities.

Unless your asking about common attributes/ingredient. They're both round. They both use flour. They both have salt.  So, if you wanted to draw two circles and put round, flour and salt inside them, that's fine, but the natural leavening is in the non intersecting portion of the NYN circle.

Thanks.  Much more clear than the sentence you wrote at the beginning. 

I read:

A = NY Style.
B = leavened with starter.

I then learned that If (A AND B) then NOT A.  A new way of describing things that I did not learn in my math and logic studies.

So, I asked for the clarity and I think I now have it.

(Does not mean I agree, or disagree, like or dislike.  It means that I better understand your point of view.)

Thanks.


Offline JD

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 05:03:58 PM »
Off the top of my head:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32613.msg325943#msg325943

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21530.msg234499#msg234499

Also, JD didn't specify what flavor the SD was producing that made him unable to create a classic NY style pizza, but, that, imo, could easily be sourness as well.


My issues with using sourdough was lack of color, not flavor. I was never able to achieve anything but a pale crust, regardless of broiler time/temp etc. The cheese would always cook too far before the crust ever showed even a hint of color.

The sourdough flavor I achieved through use of my Ischia culture, is not a "typical" attribute of the NY pizza I grew up with. To be fair though, since I've been using the Moby culture which has a completely different flavor profile, I'll admit I cannot generalize my Ischia experiments as being all inclusive to all sourdough cultures. With my limited understanding of sourdough cultures, they are only "real" if they have a ph lower than 5. That being said, I'd expect all sourdough cultures to give the same issues with crust coloration unless the dough is underfermented.

Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2014, 05:20:01 PM »
A Venn diagram?  Let me get right on that, Mitch!  :-D

Let me make this simple.  One circle for coal, one circle for NYUN, another circle for NYN. Separate entities.

Unless your asking about common attributes/ingredient. They're both round. They both use flour. They both have salt.  So, if you wanted to draw two circles and put round, flour and salt inside them, that's fine, but the natural leavening is in the non intersecting portion of the NYN circle.

 :-D

As little chance there is of NYN gaining any traction, if you seriously think NYUN has any chance of adoption, you're deluded. Unless you're making a joke. If that's the case, then, yes, you did get a chuckle out of me :)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 05:50:48 PM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2014, 05:21:11 PM »
My issues with using sourdough was lack of color

Thanks, Josh.  I might still argue, though, that acid was at the root of the issue, as it is with the flavor issues.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 05:29:22 PM »
With my limited understanding of sourdough cultures, they are only "real" if they have a ph lower than 5.

"Sourdough" is a misnomer. It in no way requires sourness, any particular pH, or anything of the sort.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 05:33:42 PM »
"Sourdough" is a misnomer. It in no way requires sourness, any particular pH, or anything of the sort.

Is 'sourdough' really that much of a misnomer?  Just because you can't taste acid, which you've made it abundantly clear that you can't, does it necessarily mean that acid isn't playing a part? Would aciddough be a misnomer?

Edit: removed references to pH
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 05:41:08 PM by scott123 »

Offline JD

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 05:35:26 PM »
"Sourdough" is a misnomer. It in no way requires sourness, any particular pH, or anything of the sort.

Can you elaborate? In Norma's aromatic yeast thread, you made the statement that it was likely not a real sourdough due to the ph being too high.
Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2014, 05:40:38 PM »
Josh, I thought you were talking about pH in the final dough. I think pH in the culture does make a difference.  Let's see what Craig has to say. In the meantime, I edited my post.

Offline JD

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2014, 05:46:41 PM »
I've been thinking about getting a starter back up and going, and think I will give this a try solely due to the claims that have been made that it will not brown.  It peaked my interest.

I'll be curious about your results. I think it's important to note I only have a standard home oven, and you may get a much different result than I do, especially if you use your coal oven. This thought is why I backed off the original sourdough/NY thread, my results were specific to the oven I used.
Josh


 

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