Author Topic: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2014, 05:54:50 PM »
Can you elaborate? In Norma's aromatic yeast thread, you made the statement that it was likely not a real sourdough due to the ph being too high.

I don't remember the specific comment. I will be happy to address it further if you point it out.  In the beginning, my opinion was that it was not a sourdough because the aromatic yeast as delivered from Lallemand was effectively devoid of LAB per the included spec sheets. In a typical SD, we would expect LAB to outnumber yeast by 10X to 100X. In the aromatic yeast, it was several orders of magnitude in the opposite direction. A relatively high pH (compared to a typical Type I SD) would be an expected observation. I later speculated based on the dropping pH that perhaps a LAB strain had established itself in the culture. If that was the case, it might be a sourdough culture. I don't know if we could say that it was stable however given the limited data.

As far as I know, Type I sourdough encompasses all symbiotic yeast-LAB cultures suitable for baking. Depending on the specific species and strains, the sourness can vary greatly.

Sourdough doesn't have to have yeast or leavening ability. Type II and III sourdoughs add flavor and acidity only and require the addition of baker's yeast for leavening.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2014, 05:59:48 PM »
Josh, I thought you were talking about pH in the final dough. I think pH in the culture does make a difference.  Let's see what Craig has to say. In the meantime, I edited my post.

Obviously pH makes a difference in the dough, but I've never heard someone define a yeast-LAB culture as not SD because it didn't meet some pH threshold. SD isn't the best name for it because with type I SD as we are exclusively referring to here, it does not necessarily imply sourness in the baked product.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline JD

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2014, 06:08:22 PM »
Definitely not sourdough.

Craig,

I know it is not sourdough, but do you think the Lallemand mixture will ferment the dough okay?  I guess it might be something like using fresh yeast in a mixture to see what might happen.

Norma

I think so. I was only commenting on the pH of ~5. A typical SD culture with a pH of 3.5 would be 30X more acidic.

5 is like a cup of black coffee.

Josh

JD's NY Style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.0
JD's Neapolitan using Pizza Party WFO: (Coming soon!)
http://www.wood-fired-pizza-oven.us/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2014, 06:15:40 PM »
I definitely wasn't quoting or setting parameters for SD. Lallemand represented the assay as 10^5CFU/g of LAB - 5 orders of magnitude less than the yeast which is nothing for all intents and purposes. A typical SD would have LAB outnumbering the yeast by 1-2 orders of magnitude. Noting that the pH was higher than a typical SD was just reaffirming the same observation.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jsaras

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2014, 06:25:02 PM »
It may be new to New York, but using a starter certainly isn't new to this Jersey transplant in Los Angeles: http://www.dishblogger.com/2012/07/11/the-great-slice-drought-of-los-angeles-is-over-thanks-to-vitos-pizza/

Although Vito refuses to call his family heirloom yeast a "sourdough" (he insists on using the term "yeast") it clearly is a sourdough and  it cannot be dismissed as being as some sort of un-kosher foreign addition. 

Vito and his family before him have been doing it the same way for a very long time. 
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline JD

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2014, 06:27:58 PM »
I definitely wasn't quoting or setting parameters for SD. Lallemand represented the assay as 10^5CFU/g of LAB - 5 orders of magnitude less than the yeast which is nothing for all intents and purposes. A typical SD would have LAB outnumbering the yeast by 1-2 orders of magnitude. Noting that the pH was higher than a typical SD was just reaffirming the same observation.

10-4. Let's chalk it up to misinterpretation.

Josh

JD's NY Style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.0
JD's Neapolitan using Pizza Party WFO: (Coming soon!)
http://www.wood-fired-pizza-oven.us/

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2014, 07:15:20 PM »
It may be new to New York, but using a starter certainly isn't new to this Jersey transplant in Los Angeles: http://www.dishblogger.com/2012/07/11/the-great-slice-drought-of-los-angeles-is-over-thanks-to-vitos-pizza/

Although Vito refuses to call his family heirloom yeast a "sourdough" (he insists on using the term "yeast") it clearly is a sourdough and  it cannot be dismissed as being as some sort of un-kosher foreign addition. 

Vito and his family before him have been doing it the same way for a very long time.


Nice looking pies there...I look forward to trying this place, and I sure as hell won't order a "NY Natural style" slice.
 :-D

Offline mitchjg

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2014, 07:27:42 PM »

Nice looking pies there...I look forward to trying this place, and I sure as hell won't order a "NY Natural style" slice.
 :-D

Definitely not.  If you really want to confuse the guy, ask him to make you a Susquehanna Special.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6969.msg333438#msg333438

- Mitch

Offline Chaze215

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2014, 07:36:19 PM »
I have a headache after reading the 1st page of this thread....and skimming the rest. Aren't we splitting hairs here? Make what you want, what you like, by however method you choose to achieve a product you enjoy. It's that simple. Who cares what it's called. Just my 2 cents.
Chaz

Offline xty

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2014, 08:03:52 PM »
Could someone please explain to me why "sourdough" has to be acidic/sour?  I have even baked cakes risen ONLY with sourdough and they were amazing (and no hint of sour).  I am making sourdough hamburger buns right now, which taste similar to Hawaiian rolls.  They are soft with a hint of sweet (and no sour).  Different cultures have shorter/longer rising times.  If you do not know how to keep out the sour with a longer rising one, get an Alaska starter.  Some Alaska starters rise almost as fast as yeast from the store! None of this is rocket science.



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2014, 08:06:27 PM »
Could someone please explain to me why "sourdough" has to be acidic/sour? 

It doesn't. In my experience, I have to go out of my way to develop a "sour" flavor. I like a sour loaf of bread for certain things, but I don't want sour in my pizza.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jeff v

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Re: A New Style is Born... New York Natural (NYN)
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2014, 11:10:41 PM »
Could someone please explain to me why "sourdough" has to be acidic/sour?

It doesn't.

Edited-nevermind
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 11:12:41 PM by jeff v »
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.