Author Topic: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest  (Read 5099 times)

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Offline tonymark

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Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« on: July 30, 2006, 12:59:30 PM »
Here is my first real try at a Neapolitan cooked on my Big Green Egg (BGE).

Recipe:
100% Caputo
64%   Water (cold, due to Atlanta heat)  (kitchen temp 82 F)
2.4%  Salt
4 %    Camaldoli starter

Mix starter and water and then slowly add 2/3 of flour (2 minutes max).  Autolyse 30 minutes.  Mix with KA paddle for 5 minutes.  Add flour slowly over 5 minutes (replace paddle with hook).  Rest 5 minutes.  Knead for 5 more minutes.   Shape dough balls.
Dough finish temp:  76 F. 
Size:                         13 " , 306 g each.


Sauce:
Home grown plum tomatoes (seeded, pureed, salted and strained).  The peels were left on.
Add fresh basil and minced garlic.

Ferment:
Cooler setup:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3305.msg28540.html#msg28540.
60-70 F for 27 hours.

Cook on Big Green Egg Ceramic cooker for 3.5 minutes. 

Toppings:
Above sauce
Leftover grilled chicken
Pesto   (made from homegrown spicy globe basil)  ------- BTW, best basil for pesto!
Polly-O whole milk mozz.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 01:04:11 PM by tonymark »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2006, 01:21:44 PM »
Tony,

The pizza looks great. Can you tell us how you liked the results (and why) and what changes, if any, you would make the next time?

I noticed that you didn't say how you incorporated the salt, that is, whether it was dissolved in the water before adding the Camadoli or just added to the flour. I assume also that the Camaldoli was 4% of the weight of flour rather than as a percent of water as is the method commonly used in Naples.

Peter

Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2006, 02:03:01 PM »
how did you like the Camaldoli compared to the one I gave you?

Jeff

Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2006, 02:10:05 PM »
Pete,

I've been thinking about this for a while: I've got a problem with using baker's percents. I add all the water up front and then add the flour gradually, until it feels right.  I recommend this and I think that many people are using that method, as it helps with the mixing technique, etc. So if flour is the last ingredient, and by all accounts the most variable, measuring everything against it seems like a bad idea.  I like the idea of measuring in terms of a base amount of water better. Then you can talk about grams per liter of water. I think marco does this. So you start with the 1000g water and then add 1600g of flour. This is the same as saying 100% water and 160% flour, etc.

Doesn't this just make more practical sense? Even as I was making up my spreadsheet, which I publish on my site, I felt that this was backwards, but I just did it to follow what everyone else does. But more and more I feel that we should switch.

Jeff

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2006, 02:32:32 PM »
I've been thinking about this for a while: I've got a problem with using baker's percents. I add all the water up front and then add the flour gradually, until it feels right.  I recommend this and I think that many people are using that method, as it helps with the mixing technique, etc. So if flour is the last ingredient, and by all accounts the most variable, measuring everything against it seems like a bad idea.  I like the idea of measuring in terms of a base amount of water better. Then you can talk about grams per liter of water. I think marco does this. So you start with the 1000g water and then add 1600g of flour. This is the same as saying 100% water and 160% flour, etc.

Doesn't this just make more practical sense? Even as I was making up my spreadsheet, which I publish on my site, I felt that this was backwards, but I just did it to follow what everyone else does. But more and more I feel that we should switch.


I use your spreadsheet which I have modified for all the different kinds of breads I make and it has been a great aid in helping me plan and analyze my efforts. It took me a while to figure out (e.g. why starter% was a % of the total weight rather than of the weight of the flour). Regarding tweaking the amount of flour for a pizza dough, I use Marco's advice to add 75% of the flour first until it is well incorporated with all the other ingredients. The remaining 25% is then sprinkled in gradually until I get the desired dough texture/kneading action. I understand your point about using the water as the basis for all of the other ingredients, but in actual practice in my kitchen, using flour as the basis and also varying the amount the flour based on conditions doesn't seem to have created any problems. Thanks for your great spreadsheet!

Bill/SFNM

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2006, 03:13:43 PM »
Jeff,

You put your finger on the reason I asked TM about the methodology he used. You are correct that Marco bases his measurements on the water, and until I got used to that fact I sometimes used too much starter in my 00 doughs that were based on Marco's dough formulation. As it so happens, in TM's case the 4% Camaldoli as a percent of flour is just a bit over the 5% max as a percent of water that Marco recommends (his range is 1-5% by weight of water). Like you, I have built my spreadsheet in the conventional manner and have gotten used to it. I think your recommendation works well when there are only a few ingredients involved, namely, flour, water, yeast/starter and salt. However, I recently worked on a dough formulation that used nine different ingredients. I found that the standard baker's percent system worked well, and it might have been confusing to the people for whom I did the number crunching if I based everything on the water. For me, the answer may be to have two spreadsheets--yours (or one like it) and the standard one.

Peter

Offline tonymark

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2006, 04:52:08 PM »
Tony,

The pizza looks great. Can you tell us how you liked the results (and why) and what changes, if any, you would make the next time?

I must say the Caputo dough really handled better than the KABF, which I have used until this point.  The dough had a smoother texture than KABF with only a 5 minute rest at end of knead.  Also, at 64% hydration, the dough seemed to be less hydrated than it was, especially when shaping dough balls.  When stretching skins, the dough seems pretty wet, but I had no tears or weak spots.

I have not tried a long ~65 F fermentation with the Patsy culture yet and will probably try that next time.  I have been using the camadoli for this only because I have read that it is less sour.

Jeff,
With a cold/refridgerated rise I can barely tell a difference between the two cultures.  Although, I may not be getting the most flavor from the cultures.  I know that they are not cross-contaminated because the plain cultures smell very different at 85 F.


I noticed that you didn't say how you incorporated the salt, that is, whether it was dissolved in the water before adding the Camadoli or just added to the flour. I assume also that the Camaldoli was 4% of the weight of flour rather than as a percent of water as is the method commonly used in Naples.

Peter

Peter,
I always add the salt after autolyze and before rest of flour.

The 4 % camadoli is based on the total dough weight.  The % starter in relation to added flour is actually 7.0 %.  Since the starter itself contains flour, how would I base it off the flour correctly.  How do most people report the starter percentage when posting recipes.  My starter consists of about 50 % flour by % of total starter weight.   I am currently using Jeff's spreadsheet for dough formulations (with some modification).
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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2006, 05:14:40 PM »
Tony,

The pre-ferment can be treated as just another ingredient or it can be combined with the basic dough formulation. To see how this is done, you might go to the theartisan.net website, at http://www.theartisan.net/TheArtisanMain.htm, and use the Site Search feature with the search terms "Baker's Percentage" (without the quotes). The exercise is fairly straightforward if you know what your pre-ferment is made up of, but can get tricky if you don't. The latter situation can happen if you just mix water and flour to refresh a starter without measuring out the flour and water in a fairly accurate way.

Peter

Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2006, 06:25:12 PM »
Tony, what are you using for cheese these days here in Atlanta. I'm so pissed at whole foods. They date the mozz to be fresh for a month and as near as I can tell it lasts a few days. I've bought several batches that were absolutely rancid when I got them home.

I just ordered a cheesemaking kit. I'm getting to the end of my rope.

Jeff

Offline tonymark

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2006, 08:23:00 PM »
Tony, what are you using for cheese these days here in Atlanta. I'm so pissed at whole foods. They date the mozz to be fresh for a month and as near as I can tell it lasts a few days.
I just ordered a cheesemaking kit. I'm getting to the end of my rope.

Jeff

I generally mix up the cheese on my pizzas.  Saturday I made 4 pizzas.  Two of those were made with Calabro fresh mozzarella, which I purchase at Dekalb Farmer's Market.  They sell different ball sizes and I prefer the Ovoline, but I will choose the size with the latest expire date (this should be the freshest).  That market does really high volume and are sometimes out of the fresh stuff.  This is a good sign in my opinion. 

I make a lot  my pizzas with Polly-o whole milk "dry style" mozzarella from Publix.  I buy this for convenience and it is the next best thing to fresh that I have found in Atlanta.  Not as good as fresh, but it makes a good pizza. 

I bought some fresh a Whole Foods and was very disappointed.  I really wish a company like Bella Cucina (Atlanta based) would start making fresh mozzarella. 

Making mozzarella ...
I assume you are going the Thermophillic culture and Lipase route.  The whole pH thing seems a little tricky.  Are you going to use a digital pH meter?  Let me know how this works out.  I have made mozzarella with the shortcut method of citric acid and the microwave.  I made cheese, but it lacked flavor and was rubbery.  I have been thinking of ordering some culture myself, but I really don't need another hobby.
BTW,  the Dekalb Farmer's Market also sell Organic unhomogenized whole milk that is not ultra-pasteurized.  This is what you need for homemade mozzarella.  You should be able to find something similar in the Buckhead area.

Good luck,
TM

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Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2006, 08:35:43 PM »
>Thermophillic culture and Lipase
Say what?

I'm using this:
http://www.cheesemaking.com/default-cPath-22.php

It's basically rennet and citric acid mixed into unhomogenized milk. Do I need a pH meter?

Are there any other places to get the right milk. I know they have it at Star Provisions. How about that international farmers market on Peachtree industrial?

Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2006, 08:46:46 PM »
Ok, I did a little googling.  The cheese world seems to be split between the cultured cheesed and the non-cultured. is it possible that the culture is only used for hard mozz and not fresh. I got that quick impression.  I doubt most NY deli's, which all make their own cheese, make it this complicated. But I could certainly be wrong.  I'm going to try without it and see.  Any thoughts?

Jeff
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 08:49:10 PM by varasano »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2006, 10:16:40 PM »
Trader Joe's sells unhomogenized "cream top" milk. It makes great uncultured cheese with a nice sweet, fresh taste. I try to knead out as much moisture as possible when using for pizza. I use the 30-minute recipe from Ricki Carroll's "Home Cheesemaking". I usually add a glop or two of heavy cream (Trader Joe's).  It is fun and satisfying to make, but having said this, I have been buying fresh salted mozzarella from Alleva Dairy in NYC and freezing what I can't use right away. Even thawed, it is better than any mozzarella I've made at home.

Bill/SFNM

Offline tonymark

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2006, 11:00:32 PM »
>Thermophillic culture and Lipase
Say what?

I'm using this:
http://www.cheesemaking.com/default-cPath-22.php

It's basically rennet and citric acid mixed into unhomogenized milk. Do I need a pH meter?

Are there any other places to get the right milk. I know they have it at Star Provisions. How about that international farmers market on Peachtree industrial?


Been there, done that.  I had high hopes for Ricki Carroll's 30 minute mozzarella, but was disappointed.  I think the cultured approach would be better, but I have not tried it.  This is should be a good start:  http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/mozzarella.htm.

Think about it like this,  you make dough with a culture and not IDY.  So, why would "cheating" at mozzarella result in high quality cheese.  As Bill/SFNM said, it is just not as good as a quality mozzarella cheese.  That being said, try it and let us know how it goes.  You may want to acquire some lipase and add that to this simple mozzarella.  That is supposed to increase flavor.

I don't know if International Farmer's Market sells unhomgenized milk, but I would guess no.  Give them a call.

TM
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Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2006, 12:29:03 AM »
I'm not trying to cheat, but I was always under the impression the mozz was NOT cultured. Can anyone say if the kind of mozz they sell in NYC is cultured? I'm betting no. The fiascofarm.com recipe is for goat milk which several sites said was not a good way to make mozz (too low fat), so maybe they are culturing to compensate for some flavor difference that lower fat brings.

I'm just guessing.

Jeff

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2006, 10:27:12 AM »
Tony and Jeff,

Knowing that some of our members have played around with making fresh mozzarella cheese at home, I used the Advanced search feature on the forum to find the following threads/posts:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2295.msg20128.html#msg20128
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20.msg10545.html#msg10545
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2932.msg25071.html#msg25071
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2060.msg18092.html#msg18092
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20.0.html 

Jeff, you might take note of the first link above since it indicates (in the last post) that International Gourmet, which has an operation in the Atlanta area, also sells curd. I believe that Tony has made contact with IG for Caputo flour, I believe. I don't know if they carry the curd in Atlanta but it might be something to look into if you are serious about making your own mozzarella cheese. Maybe Tony can help connect you with IG.

Peter

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2006, 11:36:29 AM »
Part of the "success" of mozzarella and fior di latte (cow milk mozzarella) from Campania is due to the culture, much like bread.... and pizza...

As a matter of fact, the researchers from the University of Naples, that have supplied most of my study materials regarding microflora in Bread and Pizza, started studying the Mozzarella microfloras much earlier...

Good luck with your cheese making...


Offline tonymark

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2006, 10:48:32 PM »
I'm not trying to cheat, but I was always under the impression the mozz was NOT cultured. Can anyone say if the kind of mozz they sell in NYC is cultured? I'm betting no. The fiascofarm.com recipe is for goat milk which several sites said was not a good way to make mozz (too low fat), so maybe they are culturing to compensate for some flavor difference that lower fat brings.

Jeff,

I sent the fiascofarm.com recipe because it was what I had bookmarked for a different mozz technique.  Maybe the recipe is only for goat milk.

I am not sure about the NYC mozz, but Marco seems to imply that the Italian cheese is culture.  The one advantage I can see in using a culture is that more acid will develop once the curd has formed because it contains live culture.  It is difficult (if not impossible) to add citric acid to already formed curd.  So if the pH is not correct at that point,  the cheese will not be right.

I have only tried this twice and was really looking more for a wet mozz for  insalata caprese and not for pizza.  The dry rubbery mozz that resulted may be great for pizza.  I blamed the microwave at first and the tried the hot water technique to heat the curd for stretching, only to watch the curd fall apart.  I think the pH was too high at that point.  At the time I did not know of a source for unhomogenized milk and used homogenized.  This also may have contributed to the poor results.

I found my rennet and citric acid in the freezer and will try this again soon.  I will let you know how it goes.

TM
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Offline varasano

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2006, 05:44:00 PM »
thanks guys,

I'll try the kit I bought without culture once using unhomogenized and post up and let everyone know. I'm waiting on the kit. But I'll probably need the culture, I guess

Jeff
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 05:47:15 PM by varasano »

Offline tonymark

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Re: Tonymark's Neapolitan Quest
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2006, 06:14:33 PM »
If you go through Peter's links you will find this link: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/CHEESE.HTML

FankHauser is also using Goat milk, but says store bought will work.  His recipe for  Mozzarella, Fresh (Pasta Filata) uses only cultured buttermilk for the starter culture.  I am considering that process, but it may be a week or so, until I am ready and have time for pizza again.

TM
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 10:06:38 PM by tonymark »
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