Author Topic: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough  (Read 5681 times)

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Offline pizzanyc

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hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« on: August 08, 2006, 02:09:07 PM »
i made a neapolitan style pizza using farina tipo 00 flour.

this dough was very difficult to stretch out. unlike high gluten flour and i had some difficulty stretching the dough.

take a look at the photos and tell me what you think. the photo of the crust shows its too thick. and a little too bread like for my taste. i was trying to imitate nick's pizza in forest hills but failed.


Offline scott r

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 02:24:33 PM »
pizzanyc,  there are a number of things that could have caused this.  If you report your exact recipe and methodology to the forum I am sure Pete-zza will come to your rescue.

I can definitely tell you that using a wetter dough will help tremendously.  This is probably the main culprit here.

There is also a very good chance that your dough was not fermented for long enough.

An initial rest period where you let the flour and water just sit in your mixing bowl for a while helps with extensability.

Stretching your dough while it is at room temp (and not cold from the fridge) helps .

It could also be that you kneaded or just handled your dough too much before you attempted to shape it.  That would have caused the gluten to tighten.

Offline varasano

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2006, 03:02:24 PM »
Hey guys,

I agree with scott. I'd put it in this order

#1 "An initial rest period where you let the flour and water just sit in your mixing bowl for a while helps with extensability."
#2 Use a 'wet knead' tecnhique where you do most of the mixing with 75% of the flour and add the remaining portion gradually near the end of mixing
#3 "I can definitely tell you that using a wetter dough will help tremendously." 

Jeff

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2006, 11:49:31 PM »
got this recipe from a book: pizza by diane morgan

3 grams fresh cake yeast
2 cups lukewarm water (90 to 100 F)
1 tablespoon table salt (i used iodized salt is that the same thing?)
7 1/4 cups caputo flour plus more for dusting (i used farina tipo 00 flour instead since i don't have caputo)

i stirred the yeast into 1 cup of lukewarm water, let the yeast dissolve
in another small bowl, combined the salt and the remaining water to dissolve salt

i used a kitchen aid mixer and put the flour in first, then mixed in the yeast water mixture first gradually, and after a while, put in the salt water mixture to try to get it to form a nice smooth soft dough.

once that was done, i took it out and cut the dough into fifths to form five even portions each weighing 9.5 ounces.

and put each one into a 1 gallon sealable ziploc plastic bag and squeezed out all the air before i sealed it so it had room to rise. after rising it for about 1 hr and 30 minutes, i put it in the fridge for like 12-18 hrs i guess i don't remember to retard the dough. then  i took out after that time and let the dough warm up for 2 hrs to reactivate the yeast, and then i put each piece of dough on a marble surface with flour and tried to shape it into a pizza. and put on the sauce and cheese and then i dust the pizza peel with semolina flour to make it easy to slide into my oven which heats up to 600 and has a pizza stone. took it out and voila. what went wrong?

Offline varasano

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 01:39:25 AM »
Run screaming from that recipe...

Click the little globe under my name and you will see a real recipe with photos.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 05:16:56 AM »
pizzanyc,

I'm afraid I have to agree with Jeff on this one. And scott r gave you good advice also.

I am familiar with the recipe inasmuch as I made a pizza from that recipe. In my case, I did my best to calculate the baker's percents for the recipe, which is stated in volume measurements, and scaled it down to a single pizza size. If you go to Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg18385.html#msg18385, you will see my results, which were mediocre at best. I believe that it is possible to improve the recipe, as I noted in the above post, but I believe that there are better recipes available elsewhere.

You indicated that you used a "farina tipo 00 flour". That is a generic Italian description that applies to all 00 flours. You may want to look more carefully for the brand name for the particular 00 flour that you have since it's possible that it is not as well suited to the recipe as the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. 

The salt you used, even though iodized, is table salt. For a more authentic result, you may want to use a natural sea salt.

Peter

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 06:35:39 PM »
molini pizzuti is the name of the brand i used. i think their website is http://www.molinipizzuti.it/index_ing.html

i bought this cause it was easy to access to it by amazon.com

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 07:09:34 PM »
pizzanyc,

I have heard of the Molini Pizutti 00 flour but have not seen the specs for it. I do know that Molini Pizutti puts out a "Vesuvius" flour that is primarily for professional bakers, with an 8-12 hour fermentation time, that may be better for use in the recipe you used. I don't think the Vesuvius flour is available in the U.S. If you want to get the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, it is available, repackaged, in 5-lb. bags at pennmac.com (look under the Pizza Makers tab).

Peter

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 10:52:32 PM »
by the way, would anyone here know where i could go and take professional pizza training course in nyc? and how much it costs? let me know, thanks.

Offline scpizza

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2006, 06:37:51 PM »
If you figure that one out, let me know.  Best I can tell, we are on our own.


Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2006, 09:54:43 PM »
Run screaming from that recipe...

Click the little globe under my name and you will see a real recipe with photos.

Jeff

those pies on that site of yours look delicious.

but the only recipe i found on your site looked confusing cause it didn't have any units.

Ingredient  1 Pie  3 Pies 5 Pies Baker's % Grams Per Liter of Water
Filtered Water       115.00        345.00        575.00  62.16%   
King Arthur Bread flour, or Caputo Pizzeria flour       185.00        555.00        925.00  100.00%                   1,608.70 
Kosher or Sea Salt           4.60          13.80          23.00  2.49%                        40.00 
Sourdough yeast culture (as a battery poolish)         16.00          48.00          80.00  8.65%                      139.13 
Instant Dry yeast - Optional           0.50            1.50            2.50  0.27%                           4.35 
Total       321.10   


what unit does the 115.00 next to filtered water mean? 115 grams? 115 kilo? 115 ounces? let me know what unit of measurement each number uses, so i can have a better idea. by the way is king arthur bread flour better than the high gluten flour for making pizza? and is sour dough yeast culture really necessary to produce top quality pizza like the ones shown in your photos? what does the sour dough yeast culture really contribute? is it similar to liquid levain in that it contributes only a sour taste?

Offline varasano

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2006, 10:12:18 PM »
The recipe is in grams.

Bread vs. Hi Gluten:
I've tried both and I prefer Bread. I actually use a 50/50 blend of Bread & Caputo 00. But I'm not married to this. I really think that the technique is the more important factor. The first photo on my site is using AP.  Most 'street' pizza in NY uses Hi Gluten, but neopolitan pizza uses 00 which has about the same amount of protein as AP.

Sourdough does not mean sour tasting. It's just a term that means "anything but Saccharomyces cerevisiae" which is the breed of yeast that is in Instant Dry Yeast, Active Dry Yeast and cake yeast. All other yeasts are called sourdough, whether they are very sour or not.

The culture is the primary flavoring agent in the dough. I've heard some compelling evidence recently that says it is possible to make a quality pie without a culture, but these were all done with coal ovens.  As far as I know, and I've been doing this for years, the sourdough culture is the way to go.

Jeff

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2006, 08:13:17 PM »
Ingredient  1 Pie  3 Pies 5 Pies Baker's % Grams Per Liter of Water
Filtered Water       115.00        345.00        575.00  62.16%                   1,000.00 
King Arthur Bread flour, or Caputo Pizzeria flour       185.00        555.00        925.00  100.00%                   1,608.70 
Kosher or Sea Salt           4.60          13.80          23.00  2.49%                        40.00 
Sourdough yeast culture (as a battery poolish)         16.00          48.00          80.00  8.65%                      139.13 
Instant Dry yeast - Optional           0.50            1.50            2.50  0.27%                           4.35 
Total       321.10   


how would i modify this recipe if i didn't use sourdough yeast culture and instead wanted to use fresh yeast? i have the caputo flour from pennmac.com and i think i have sea salt, so can you alter this recipe for me, thanks.

Offline varasano

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2006, 11:06:13 AM »
just leave off the starter and divide it's weight 50/50 between flour and water. Don't increase the amount of fresh yeast. Use just a tiny tiny, amount, regardless of what you read in recipes. 1/8 th teaspoon is plenty for 5 pizzas. You want a long slow rise. It won't look like much is happening for 10 hours, then it will kick in.

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2006, 11:49:22 AM »
What Jeff says is consistent with Neapolitan pizza dough formulations that I have seen. For example, for 1650 grams of flour (Caputo Pizzeria), only 2.5 grams of fresh yeast might be used. If you try to reduce the yeast for just one pizza dough ball, the amount of yeast is so small as to be difficult to measure out. Once, when I did that, Marco (pizzanapoletana) told me that I should make a lot more dough and use whatever I didn't need to make pizzas to make bread rolls or something like that. Large amounts of dough behave differently than small amounts.

Peter

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2006, 12:34:28 PM »
just leave off the starter and divide it's weight 50/50 between flour and water. Don't increase the amount of fresh yeast. Use just a tiny tiny, amount, regardless of what you read in recipes. 1/8 th teaspoon is plenty for 5 pizzas. You want a long slow rise. It won't look like much is happening for 10 hours, then it will kick in.

Ingredient  1 Pie  3 Pies 5 Pies Baker's % Grams Per Liter of Water
Filtered Water       115.00        345.00        575.00  62.16%                   1,000.00 
King Arthur Bread flour, or Caputo Pizzeria flour       185.00        555.00        925.00  100.00%                   1,608.70 
Kosher or Sea Salt           4.60          13.80          23.00  2.49%                        40.00 
Sourdough yeast culture (as a battery poolish)         16.00          48.00          80.00  8.65%                      139.13 
Instant Dry yeast - Optional           0.50            1.50            2.50  0.27%                           4.35 
Total       


So for five pies (how big are the pies by the way in inches?)

i would use:

filtered water- 575 grams (does the water have to be a specific temperature?  if so, can i use non-filtered water?
caputo pizzeria flour-925 grams
sea salt- 23 grams
fresh yeast- 1/8th of a teaspoon (do you know how many grams that would be probablY?

so the procedure for making these pies would be putting the caputo flour and the filtered water in the mixer and letting it just sit there for 20 minutes or so to let the flour absorb the water (aka autolysing)
then after that 20 minutes, put in the yeast, and start mixing and then after a while, mix in the salt right?

once it gets nice and smooth and thoroughly mixed, put it in bowl, and cover it with a cloth and put it in warm place to rise  (with high gluten flour the max rising time outside from what i heard is only 2 hours. and then you put it in the fridge for retarding slow fermentation for up to 24 hours. Is it different with caputo flour, do you let it rise for much longer? outside in warm place, or do you let it rise inside the fridge? how long?

i'm very confused about the whole process, so if you could describe it in detail , let me know. thanks.

Offline varasano

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2006, 04:09:51 PM »
Don't do 5 pies. Start with 3. It will work better in your mixer, especially as a beginner;

Try this:
Flour 580g
Water 360g (62%)
Salt 14g (2.4%)
Yeast 1g (0.25%)

I would not start off with caputo, I'd use bread, especially at your stage, but if that's what you have, use it.

PLEASE read my mixing instructions. They are not that difficult and very important. You HAVE to add the flour gradually. 75% at first, mix 5 minutes, then add the last 25% a little bit at a time. Total mix is maybe 10 minutes. It may or may not look smooth at that point. Don't worry about it. The more important thing is that you don't start with too much flour or the dough will stick to the hook and spin uselessly.

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2006, 05:18:56 PM »
Don't do 5 pies. Start with 3. It will work better in your mixer, especially as a beginner;

Try this:
Flour 580g
Water 360g (62%)
Salt 14g (2.4%)
Yeast 1g (0.25%)

I would not start off with caputo, I'd use bread, especially at your stage, but if that's what you have, use it.

PLEASE read my mixing instructions. They are not that difficult and very important. You HAVE to add the flour gradually. 75% at first, mix 5 minutes, then add the last 25% a little bit at a time. Total mix is maybe 10 minutes. It may or may not look smooth at that point. Don't worry about it. The more important thing is that you don't start with too much flour or the dough will stick to the hook and spin uselessly.

once it gets nice and smooth and thoroughly mixed, put it in bowl, and cover it with a cloth and put it in warm place to rise  (with high gluten flour the max rising time outside from what i heard is only 2 hours. and then you put it in the fridge for retarding slow fermentation for up to 24 hours. Is it different with caputo flour, do you let it rise for much longer? outside in warm place, or do you let it rise inside the fridge? how long?

i'll be using a kitchen aid mixer. i have a pizza stone and a oven that goes up to 600 degrees. thanks for your help. please clarify on my questions above.

Offline varasano

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2006, 05:41:14 PM »
First, and most important thing - the dough should rise no more than 50%, NOT double in bulk as many recipes say. 

How long it takes to get there is a little flexible, as minor variations in the temp of your fridge, and kitchen, etc. will affect it a lot.   I never put it in a warm place or cover it with a cloth. You are better off using a plastic container, which you can get in the supermarket, like the one in the photo on my site.  With the cloth you are risking forming a skin over the crust or changing it's overall hydration level. Better to have it sealed in a container for these early tries. Just put 1 or 2 drops of oil in the container and spread to make a paper thin coating.

After mixing let it sit 20 minutes. I cover the mixing bowl with a plastic bag to keep it from drying out. Knead for 30 seconds, then shape into balls.  Don't overknead.  I usually put mine in the fridge right then, but I use a natural starter, so it's a bit different.  I would leave it out for no more than 1 hour and then into the fridge for 24 hours (or as long as 4-5 days) and then take it out and let it rise until it's done. How long that last part is, is pretty hard to say, as minor temp variations will affect it. Even within one batch, containers stored in different parts of your fridge can vary quite a bit. You put 3 balls into the fridge, open the door the next day and one has risen twice as much as the others. It happens.  Figure it will rise between 1 and 3 hours in this last phase.  If you see that in the fridge it has already risen 50%, then start the oven and take it out just long enough to come up to room temp or a little below.  If the doughs are not uniform, then this is a chance to even them out, by varying how long they are out.

Overall, it's MUCH better to have underrisen dough than overrisen.  Keep that in mind. You are better off with a 25% rise than 100%. In face, I think Marco suggests 25% as the target.

Jeff
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 05:46:36 PM by varasano »

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: hard to stretch neapolitan style dough
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2006, 06:08:33 PM »
First, and most important thing - the dough should rise no more than 50%, NOT double in bulk as many recipes say. 

How long it takes to get there is a little flexible, as minor variations in the temp of your fridge, and kitchen, etc. will affect it a lot.   I never put it in a warm place or cover it with a cloth. You are better off using a plastic container, which you can get in the supermarket, like the one in the photo on my site.  With the cloth you are risking forming a skin over the crust or changing it's overall hydration level. Better to have it sealed in a container for these early tries. Just put 1 or 2 drops of oil in the container and spread to make a paper thin coating.

After mixing let it sit 20 minutes. I cover the mixing bowl with a plastic bag to keep it from drying out. Knead for 30 seconds, then shape into balls.  Don't overknead.  I usually put mine in the fridge right then, but I use a natural starter, so it's a bit different.  I would leave it out for no more than 1 hour and then into the fridge for 24 hours (or as long as 4-5 days) and then take it out and let it rise until it's done. How long that last part is, is pretty hard to say, as minor temp variations will affect it. Even within one batch, containers stored in different parts of your fridge can vary quite a bit. You put 3 balls into the fridge, open the door the next day and one has risen twice as much as the others. It happens.  Figure it will rise between 1 and 3 hours in this last phase.  If you see that in the fridge it has already risen 50%, then start the oven and take it out just long enough to come up to room temp or a little below.  If the doughs are not uniform, then this is a chance to even them out, by varying how long they are out.

Overall, it's MUCH better to have underrisen dough than overrisen.  Keep that in mind. You are better off with a 25% rise than 100%. In face, I think Marco suggests 25% as the target.

Jeff

by the way, is sea salt really necessary or will regular table salt do?