Author Topic: interesting recipe i found on food tv site  (Read 9252 times)

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Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2006, 04:22:08 PM »
I just ordered some giusto also.

My oven will hit 1000F, but I never get it that hot.  My times really vary a lot because I'm always running some test or other. The hottest I've probably done is 870, with a super wet caputo pie. That was well under 2 minutes. But usually I'm in the 2:30 range. I don't subsribe to "the hotter the better".  I once posted that I was dropping my official recommendation from 825 to 790. I then immediately began getting sucked into all the posts talking about 90 second, 60 seconds, 30 seconds. I tried a lot of higher temps.  But lately I'm back again to 2:30 or even 3:00 pies, which is back into the 790 range. The super hot pies are a little too soft for me. I like my pie light, but not necessarily soft. Johnny's is a great example of a pie that is super light, but not soft at all.

This is one of those areas where I think that as my dough technique improves, I can lighten up on the extreme heat and still get good results. I've timed Patsy's at over 4 minutes and Johnny's is closer to 5. But until recently never had good results in those ranges. I made a 4 minute pie last week. I had let the oven cool off and the last of the batch of 6 took about 4 minutes.  It was every bit as good as the first pie which was 2:15, probably better. 

I may have some major edits to my site about this soon.

I might be putting the cart before the horse here, but I had a long conversation with a local restaurant owner who just opened a pizza place. His other restaurants are among my favorites in town, but I had the pizza and it was pretty average for Atlanta. He is coming over in a few days to try my pies and he seems amenable to  some coaching.  I don't know his heat situation, but I suspect it's not 800F. If he needs to make a lower temp pie and he's open to coaching, I may begin a major effort to try to reverse engineer Johnny's. Someone posted a photo of Joe & Pat's on Staten Island, which looks a lot like a Johnny's pie to me:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.msg29650.html#msg29650

It's not Marco's 60 second neo, but such a pie would be a huge step up for Atlanta.

Twice in the last year I made a 700F pie and thought that it had glimmers of the Johnny's texture. It was enough to make me think a Johnny's reverse engineer is within grasp.  I'm pretty sure I'd need a new culture. Scott, you are in the area of Johnny's is that right?

Jeff









Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2006, 04:23:59 PM »
Pete,

re autolyse times: I've only done from 3-10 pies in a batch, and it seems the same. I think that for very large batches, you might have to do the initial mix a bit longer before starting the autolyse, just to make sure the flour is all incorporated.

Actually, I was wondering if the initial time needs to be 20 minutes. I've done it for as long as an hour, but I think I want to test 10 and 15 and see what happens. I'd love to shorten this whole thing up. The post-mix time of 20 minutes I feel pretty good about.

Jeff
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 04:33:22 PM by varasano »

Offline Peteg

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2006, 11:31:52 PM »
Jeff & Scott,
                   I think you will both be very happy with the giusto's high gluten once it arrives.  I've been using it for the last 4 months and I can't imagine going back.  For me, it produces a light chewy interior with a nice crusty exterior.  I too have taken my cook times from the 90 second range to about 3:30 now days.  I love the charred flavor that accompanies a 90 second bake but I would rather have a slight crunch in the dough and that's what I get from a 3:30 bake time.  I've tried KASL, KABF & Caputo and so far the Giusto's is definitely my favorite.  Just as an FYI, my hydration is typically around 54-55%.  I'm anxious to hear what each of you think about the Giusto's.  Pete G.

Offline tonymark

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2006, 03:04:33 PM »

I might be putting the cart before the horse here, but I had a long conversation with a local restaurant owner who just opened a pizza place. His other restaurants are among my favorites in town, but I had the pizza and it was pretty average for Atlanta. He is coming over in a few days to try my pies and he seems amenable to  some coaching.  I don't know his heat situation, but I suspect it's not 800F. If he needs to make a lower temp pie and he's open to coaching, I may begin a major effort to try to reverse engineer Johnny's.

What's the new pizza place and who is the restaurateur?  Let me know when his pizzas meet with your approval.  I always want to recommend a good pizza for my friends.  I also would like to eat a great pizza out on occasion.

TM
Making Pizza is not cooking, it is Performance Art!

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2006, 03:17:40 PM »
I'm going to keep this under wraps until I see if he is really going to change his formula or not. I'm making pizza for him tomorrow night and I want to see his reaction.  I'm hopeful.

Jeff

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2006, 05:35:52 PM »
I'm going to keep this under wraps until I see if he is really going to change his formula or not. I'm making pizza for him tomorrow night and I want to see his reaction.  I'm hopeful.

So, what's the verdict? (Inquiring minds want to know?)

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2006, 06:19:20 PM »
He said it was way better than anything in town and one of the best he's ever had. His wife said it was the best pizza she's ever had. Now we have to see if that translates into any action... I'm not going to say much. We'll have to see.

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2006, 01:26:43 PM »
Hi there,

I just read Pete's post regarding my use of all-purpose flour back in The Pizza Book, yes, I did recommend using all-purpose and the brand I used to test the book was Heckers which had a protein content of 12 1/2 to 13 %. Even then, I called for using a lower protein flour in the vein of what was used in Italy. The only pizza maker I knew who was using a lower protein flour was Jerry Pero of Totonno's. Everyone else was using an all-trumps high gluten flour which was not sold as a pizza flour, it was a flour that was recommended for crusty breads, rolls and--hearth style pizza. In NYC it was the pizza flour of choice to some of the best pizzerias around, but outside of New York, it was just plain old bread flour-that could be used to make pizza. Except for the Northeast and New York area, local pizza makers used flours that were more localized and that had lower protein content. In the South or Mid-west. the regional tastes for flour and baked products  required slightly lower protein, softer flours. For example, in Chicago a high gluten flour would have been 12-12.50%. Because it was so difficult to advise people, I tried sticking to national millers where I could get reliable specs and that the flour would be readily available. There was no where near the choice of today.

The commercial flour that the NY guys were using was very high in protein 14-14.50%--and sometimes higher.  Retail bread flour from General Mills or Pillsbury was more like 13.50-14.00% which was about as close as could be gotten to resemble the flours employed by the pizza masters. However, "pizza" flour was pretty popular with many pizzerias. They used "Pizza" flour which was a product purchased from a distributor--under the distributors private label. Not only were these flours inconsistent, but their specs were always wrong because the distributors were routinely purchasing flour from the cheapest source, so the flours varied wildly. The other turn off was that the flours were loaded with artificial stuff, they had a very long list of ingredients on the side of the bag-most of which were chemical. There was a lot more in those flours than the all purpose or high gluten flours I was using, so, I never touched the stuff. In those days the use of extenders in all aspects of pizza making from tomato extenders, cheese extenders and flour fillers were what everyone was into--yuck! The precursor magazine (which I had a subscription to for about 5 years) Pizza Maker Monthly, was chock full of all kinds of nasty things to go on top or into pizza--it was all about artificial ingredients back then. Except of course for the few dinosaurs around who still used real stuff for their pizza. Making great pizza--with pure and natural ingredients was a real challenge.

I must also say that I was under a lot of constraints from Times Books, my publisher. They felt that if recipes were too time consuming or esoteric that the book would not sell. They made the call on a lot of the information I wanted to present. For example, the New York Style recipe originally called for 1/8 teaspoon of yeast and a 24 hour fermentation. My editor thought that was too complicated and too time consuming--afterall, who wanted to wait 24 hours to eat pizza! So, they had me change the recipe. Their big thing was the recent success of Craig Claiborne and Pierre Franney's 30 Minute Gourmet. They believed that no one wanted to spend more than that amount of time in the kitchen. They wanted me to include a 30 minute recipe for pizza from the very first interview I had with them. I know that if I had told them that I couldn't come up with a pizza that could be made in 30 minutes that they wouldn't have let me do the book--they were so obsessed with this 30 minute thing. There was so much history and stories and lots of commercial information that was never to be included. I was lucky I got in as much as I did, but it was a real battle. It was my first book and I was an unknown writer, so my clout was nil.

Pizza making back in the late seventies (which is when I researched a lot of The Pizza Book was really pretty weird--people were really secretive about everything they did and what they used. The old-timers were very open with me because they had nothing to hide and they thought I would never be able to "get it"--they were so wrong about that! But most of the pizza makers back then were using inferior ingredients and artificial stuff, and they did not want the general public to know that. I would recognize the products when I went to their stores and I soon learned to shut up because once I mentioned those products, the interview would be over. It was like the stuff was some big secret and the patron was too dumb or lacked the taste to tell the difference. I was often told that people couldn't tell the difference so why bother? Which is what inspired me all the more to write the book.

If I had to characterize the late seventies and early eighties (before California pizza) I would call it the Age of Ignorance and Bad Pizza.

Evelyne :-D

Online Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2006, 02:05:21 PM »
Evelyne,

Google recently introduced a new news archival service by which old articles can be searched and reviewed (sometimes under a paid subscription), including by bracketed time periods. I did a search recently for articles in which high-gluten flour was used for pizza dough back in the 80s, when you were working on your pizza book. There were very few references to using high-gluten flour, although there were a few references in the New York Times about using Hecker's flour, which the NYT considered to be a "high gluten" flour. I found references to high gluten flour for breads and bagels, but not for pizza dough based on flours with over 14% protein. It seems that it was in the late 80s and later that the higher protein high-gluten flours came into vogue for pizza making and were discussed in the media.

Peter


 

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