Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 611587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Don Luigi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 718
  • Location: Germany
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2900 on: February 08, 2016, 04:37:17 PM »
I am loving the elegance of these! Absolutely beautiful.
On a neapolitan pizza journey with Wood fired oven Pizza Party 70x70
My Pizza


Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 443
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2901 on: February 08, 2016, 04:50:00 PM »
I will ferment and then digest all this wonderful information. Bravo Omid

Offline Pulcinella

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 77
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2902 on: February 08, 2016, 10:51:45 PM »
Very interesting, do you have a preference between CC, CW, WC? I mean which you think is better. :chef:

Offline Icelandr

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Gabriola Island, British Columbia
  • One day . . a really Good Pizza!
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2903 on: February 09, 2016, 12:26:50 AM »
Thank you! I really appreciate the time and attention you gave to the question I raised. I sense the question and answer had been asked or thought of long before my intrusion. I have read your response now, twice, not for error checking certainly, but to try to grasp the science that had me quit chemistry at university two years in a row - my head (at 68!) does not do chemistry as easily as physics! While your responses are full of information, I sense there are some suggestions to try to develop the same curiosity, the same investigations that brought about your impressions on the question of warm and cool fermentation. Making a pizza is easy. Making a great pizza, and knowing what factors caused the difference in quality, that takes a little longer.
I have time, I have this board, and I now have a Pizza Party oven to achieve the temperatures required for experimentation. With luck I will learn faster than gain weight!

Thanks Omid for your work on the answer to my question - now I will start to act on the suggestions - tomorrow, to start - same dough, two paths to maturation and some learning of fire control in the new oven.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2904 on: February 09, 2016, 05:07:20 AM »
I am loving the elegance of these! Absolutely beautiful.

Dear Don, thank you! If I had Saputo floor tiles in my wood-fired oven at home, I think I could obtain better results. Where did you buy yours? Do you know if there is a website where I can order them from? Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2905 on: February 09, 2016, 05:09:17 AM »
I will ferment and then digest all this wonderful information. Bravo Omid

I need to do a lot of "digesting" myself. Thank you!

Respectfully,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Don Luigi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 718
  • Location: Germany
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2906 on: February 09, 2016, 05:52:53 AM »

Dear Don, thank you! If I had Saputo floor tiles in my wood-fired oven at home, I think I could obtain better results. Where did you buy yours? Do you know if there is a website where I can order them from? Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid

Omid, I got my Saputo Tiles from the Pizza Party Company from Italy. Maybe you wanna drop Simone a line - he's on the forum here as well!
On a neapolitan pizza journey with Wood fired oven Pizza Party 70x70
My Pizza

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2907 on: February 09, 2016, 06:06:44 AM »
Making a pizza is easy. Making a great pizza, and knowing what factors caused the difference in quality, that takes a little longer.

I think it was Craig (TXCraig) who eloquently said something like: A superb Neapolitan pizza is a culmination of accumulated effects of many minute factors. And, I add: Some of the minute factors may seem trivial or inconsequential when thought of in abstraction. I think it was the Danish thinker Søren Kierkegaard who said: Once upon a time, a man was so abstracted from his own life that one morning he woke up and found himself dead!

Sometimes this is what befalls my dough because of me. Good day!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 08:36:22 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2908 on: February 09, 2016, 06:35:06 AM »
Based on my experiences so far, generally there are subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, differences in terms of texture and flavor between:

a. A baked Neapolitan pizza dough (hereinafter referred to as "WW") that had been warm fermented in bulk and in balls, and ripened at room temperature;
b. A baked Neapolitan pizza dough (hereinafter referred to as "CC") that had been cold fermented in bulk and in balls, and thereafter reached maturation at room temperature;
c. A baked Neapolitan pizza dough (hereinafter referred to as "WC") that had been warm fermented in bulk, then balled and cold fermented, and thereafter reached maturation at room temperature; and
d. A baked Neapolitan pizza dough (hereinafter referred to as "CW") that had been cold fermented in bulk, then balled and warm fermented, and thereafter reached maturation at room temperature.

Very interesting, do you have a preference between CC, CW, WC? I mean which you think is better. :chef:

At this point, I can not answer your question with a reasonable degree of certainty because I have not experimented with the cold fermentation methods long enough. On top of that, there are many diverse ways of implementing each dough (i.e., CC, WC, or CW). And, as I mentioned in my post (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg415361#msg415361):

"It majorly matters how each dough is executed, i.e., formulated, mixed, and developed in addition to the duration of ensuing fermentation and maturation. . . . What complicates this issue is that, the variables involved in dough production and the variability of the conditions under which each dough develops—including how the resulting dough balls are opened, garnished, and baked in what kind of oven and under what thermal conditions and within what length of time—are so manifold that I find it difficult to sensibly talk about [it]. . . ."

Since early January, when Icelander asked me about the effects of cold/warm fermentation, I have been sporadically experimenting with each of the cold fermentation methods, but I have not been doing it long enough to be fully proficient in it. In spite of that, so far I have been more drawn to the WC than CW or CC. I get my best results with the WW method—particularly when it comes to the texture—than the WC method. But, maybe that is because I am not proficient with the WC method or else. By the way, if you have not already, you should read Craig’s informative thread on warm/cold fermentation. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0

Here is an example of one of my recent WC pizzas. Good day!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 07:14:34 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 828
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2909 on: February 09, 2016, 07:02:54 AM »
Dear Don, thank you! If I had Saputo floor tiles in my wood-fired oven at home, I think I could obtain better results. Where did you buy yours? Do you know if there is a website where I can order them from? Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid

They have a Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fornace-Saputo/618184551553967

Offline Pulcinella

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 77
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2910 on: February 09, 2016, 08:56:45 PM »
In re CC and WC doughs, some pizzerias do not allow dough balls to be in tune or nearly in tune with the ambient temperature once they are taken out of refrigerator. In other words, the cold fermented dough balls go directly from the fridge to the oven after they are flattened and garnished14. Alternatively, the dough balls may rest in a room for a while, but not long enough to adapt. And, more importantly, just because a cold fermented dough ball has adjusted to room temperature, it does not necessarily mean that it has ripened. Extra time (some refer to it as "dough overtime") may be needed. From a professional standpoint, it is imperative to allow dough balls to (1) harmonize with room temperature and (2) attain maturation after they are taken out of refrigerator and before they are baked. In some cases, the dough overtime may take as long as 9 hours. And, if the dough was not properly formulated, mixed15, and developed during mixing, its ripple effects may have destabilizing effects on the dough balls during the overtime.

A cold fermented Neapolitan pizza dough ball never reaches a proper degree of dough maturation inside a refrigerator—doesn’t matter how many hours or days it stays therein—because, for practical reasons aligned with the physical and gustatory qualities of Neapolitan pizza, the proper temperature range of a Neapolitan dough ball is indubitably indispensable to its maturation and is an essential attribute thereof (cf. the hypothetical effects of refrigerator temperature on solubility of carbon dioxide in dough, dough pH, protein proteolysis, and hydrogen bonds of gluten). As quoted in an earlier post in this thread, fermentation and maturation "do not occur within the same timeframes and depend, among other factors, on the flour used and the temperature at which the dough is placed." I understand that this sounds paradoxical so long as maturation is equated with fermentation; Neapolitan dough ferments at refrigerator temperature, albeit slowly, but does not mature. The rheological properties of a cold dough ball that has been cold fermented are markedly different than the same when the dough ball has synchronized or nearly synchronized with the room temperature.

How can one evaluate the maturity of a cold dough ball to see if it is ready to be baked? Given the logic above, it is impossible, for it has none, but a potential which needs sufficient amount of time and auspicious temperatures to actualize. Besides the problem of maturation, a cold-fermented cold dough ball bakes poorly at the infernal temperatures of a Neapolitan oven. The end product may taste good, aside from all the chars that may have been caused top to bottom by the hot-and-cold effect (cf. solubility of carbon dioxide in a cold dough inside a hot oven, and pyrolysis of starch, reduced sugars, and gluten during baking), but the texture will not be up to the standards explicitly or tacitly agreed upon by many professional pizzaioli in Naples. Understanding dough maturation, which is distinct from but interrelated to fermentation, is of utmost importance and has extensive applications and implications.

I totally agree, cold dough balls make mediocre NP pies even when they look good. it literally CURSES the texture & flavor not to mention all the nasty chars, carbons. I don’t understand how pizzerias can get away with this! THey either don’t understand or just don’t care. >:(

Offline Pulcinella

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 77
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2911 on: February 09, 2016, 09:12:55 PM »
Just as our sense of sight can trick us into thinking a pen half-immersed in a glass of water is broken, our sense of taste can also deceive us. Like a painter who trains his visual color perception to recognize subtle hues of colors that are not easily perceptible to untrained eyes, or like a musician who trains his ears to discern subtle auditory sensations of pitch and tone that are not easily recognizable to untrained ears, or like a perfumer who highly refines his olfactory perception to detect fragrances that most people do not consciously detect, our sense of taste, too, can be trained, as flavorists who rigorously train theirs, to discern and discriminate between subtle flavors and their intensities of which we usually are not consciously aware. The sense of taste can be trained to acquire higher sensitivities. According to neuroscientists, the perceptual nervous system is not just a conglomeration of sensory receptors, nerves, and sensory/motor neurons hardwired to fixed recognition/action programs generated by genes; there are also networks of neurons that are softwired and programmed by experience, learning, and training as a supplement to the genetically hardwired fixed neurological programs. As aspirant pizzaioli, if we desire to excel ourselves in this profession, we need to be more conscious, sensitive, and critical to flavors rather than taking them at face value.

My sister in law is a professional flavorist, she tells me all about the deceptions of tastes/flavors.


Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2912 on: Today at 03:09:50 AM »
Omid, I got my Saputo Tiles from the Pizza Party Company from Italy. Maybe you wanna drop Simone a line - he's on the forum here as well!

Dear Don, I thank you for your response. I have not contacted Simone yet, but I looked at the Saputo floor tiles on the Pizza Party website:
(http://pizzapartyshop.com/en/accessories/59-wood-fired-oven-floor-biscotto-saputo.html?search_query=Pizzone&results=4&cid=)

The internal diameter of my oven floor is 64cm (32cm × 2). (See the 1st picture attached below.) The website, sells a bundle of four Saputo tiles for $108 US dollars, plus $84 for shipping. According to the website, each tile is 40cm × 30cm. Four Saputo tiles put together side-by-side add up to 80cm × 60cm. (See the 2nd picture attached below.) As shown in the picture, there is going to be a 4cm gap, which is no big deal at all. I can make the fire over the gap.

Now, I have one concern. How easy are the tiles to saw? If I buy the tiles, I would naturally have a professional mason do the sawing for me. I guess there is a chance that they might break or crack under the saw. Have you, or Sub or anybody else, ever had experience with cutting such tiles? How fragile or crackable are they? I thank you in advance for your consideration. Schönen Tag!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: Today at 03:33:11 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2913 on: Today at 03:32:48 AM »
They have a Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fornace-Saputo/618184551553967

Dear Sub, thank you for the link. A friend of mine, who also owns a Forno Classico oven like mine, contacted Saputo back in August of last year. Unfortunately, they told him that they do not ship to the United States. And, if my friend's brother, who lives in Naples, were to take care of the shipping, it was going to cost about 600 euros, plus 85 euros for the biscotto tiles. Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1437
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2914 on: Today at 04:22:56 AM »
When glutenin and gliadin proteins of wheat flour are mixed and reacted together and with water, a viscous and elastic substance known as "gluten" is formed. A baked Neapolitan dough owes much of its structure to the gluten proteins, molecules of which are linked together via disulfide bonds, hydrogen bonds, and other linkages. Upon kneading a mixture of water and wheat flour, a multilayered gluten film/matrix generates throughout the dough mass. The membranous gluten network surrounds and holds the starch granules and water throughout the network, which also holds the air trapped during mixing. Furthermore, the largely gas-impermeable gluten films trap the carbon dioxide gas produced during fermentation. As the produced gases accumulate, the gluten structure expands, causing the dough to rise or leaven (derived from the Latin verb levare, meaning "to lift" or "to levitate"). . . .

If I am not mistaken, the hydrogen bonds of gluten are an underlying causation of a cold dough being structurally stronger than the same dough at room temperature. In re the disulfide bonds of gluten, I do not know if cold temperature has any effects on them. Reportedly, the air incorporated in dough during mixing is instrumental in forming strong disulfide bonds.

I would like to share with you some visual representations of gluten formation I found on the net. I do not know how accurately it is depicted. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: Today at 05:47:44 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 828
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2915 on: Today at 05:18:40 AM »

Now, I have one concern. How easy are the tiles to saw? If I buy the tiles, I would naturally have a professional mason do the sawing for me. I guess there is a chance that they might break or crack under the saw. Have you, or Sub or anybody else, ever had experience with cutting such tiles? How fragile or crackable are they? I thank you in advance for your consideration. Schönen Tag!

It's easy to saw with an angle grinder, a bit fragile but if you are careful there is nothing to worry about.
Look at my post on the G3ferrari thread

Offline Matthew

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2277
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2916 on: Today at 05:58:50 AM »
Omid,
I ordered 2 sets of Saputo stone; 1 set for my Pizzone & 1 set for my SAGE oven.  They arrived to Toronto in perfect condition the packaging used was great.  I too will have to cut down one of the stones as my SAGE has an interior of 18" x 16".  To my knowledge they should be very easy to cut albeit, they are quite delicate.  Simone is a great guy to deal with & has been extremely helpful.  He doesn't advertise it but he has a larger size available as a friend of mine was inquiring for his WFO. 


Take Care,
Matthew


Offline mmille24

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 57
  • Location: San Diego
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2917 on: Today at 01:05:52 PM »
Going to Pizzeria Bruno Napoletano tonight. Can't wait!


 

pizzapan