Author Topic: starters  (Read 5986 times)

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Offline artigiano

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starters
« on: September 15, 2006, 01:55:46 PM »
Do most neapolitan pizzeria doughs use yeast or starters?


Offline ebpizza

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Re: starters
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2006, 03:57:34 PM »
I'm not touching that question with a 10ft pole.

Offline scott r

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Re: starters
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 04:47:03 PM »
almost everyone uses commercial yeast not wild yeast (starters).

Marco has said that even in Naples it is a very small portion that use wild yeast.  Maybe he will chime in with a percentage, but I would guess that it is less than 20%.

Here in the USA it is virtually non existant.  The only places I know of are Una Pizza Napoletanna, and one other place in NY that Jeff Varasano reported on, but I forgot the name.


I would love to add to this list, so I am starting another thread about this.

Offline artigiano

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Re: starters
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2006, 07:25:52 PM »
thanks, I was just curious since I have seen so much info on starters that it struck my curiousity as somethig to try

Offline Elior

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Re: starters
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 05:49:12 PM »
scott
just to be exact, when you say commercial yeast you mean idy or fresh yeast?
tnx
smart'

Offline scott r

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Re: starters
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 06:03:51 PM »
If I understand it correctly commercial yeast would be idy ady or fresh yest, not wild yeast (starter).

Offline varasano

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Re: starters
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2006, 06:03:51 PM »
My understanding is that these are virtually the same thing. Also, I've made pies with both and I can't tell the difference. I know some think that the cake is more professional. But I think it's really just the same. You have to upgrade to a real starter, then the diff is huge.

Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: starters
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 07:19:40 PM »
I agree with Jeff. According to the San Francisco Institute of Baking, a school for artisanal bread bakers, the fresh yeast has greater "romantic appeal" than the other forms of commercial yeast, but based on tests they performed all three forms of commercial yeast, ADY, IDY and fresh yeast, performed the same. The American Institute of Baking did similar tests and reached similar conclusions.

Peter

Offline shango

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Re: starters
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 08:36:06 PM »
I use fresh yeast as prescribed by the Vera Pizza Association.  Also use a sourdough starter for a very rustic unsalted bread that is baked in the pizza oven. 

but in answer to your question always fresh yeast for pizza
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: starters
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 09:03:58 PM »
Edan,

For me it is somewhat a moot point because all of the markets near me (just outside of Dallas) have stopped carrying cake yeast. I would have to find a baker near me that uses the fresh yeast.

Have you ever tried using a preferment in the 2Amys pizza doughs?

Peter


Offline varasano

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Re: starters
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 09:07:48 PM »
Hey Edan,

I'm always surprised when I see a great looking pie like yours that is made without a preferment. It's a lot of trouble to make these pies right and a preferment adds so much more flavor than fresh yeast, so I don't see the rationale for doing anything but a good starter. What am I missing?

Jeff

Offline shango

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Re: starters
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 09:36:22 PM »
Honestly,  I believe that if one really is passionate about pizza, they can make a good pizza.

No one way is better than another. 

Here is the thing.......In order to maintain a DOC designation as a true Neapolitan pizza, one must use fresh yeast.

Those are the rules.  I'm not saying that following these rules make a better pizza (yes I am  ;))  But there is a certain amount of pride that can be taken in following the laws of tradition.

I am sure that an excellent pizza can be made with a starter or with wild yeast for that matter.  (I imagine the wild yeast would be just about the hardest.)

pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline shango

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Re: starters
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2006, 09:39:06 PM »
I hope double posting is not a no-no but,  A well developed, slowly, double-rised dough will have flavor enough.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: starters
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 09:14:20 AM »


Here is the thing.......In order to maintain a DOC designation as a true Neapolitan pizza, one must use fresh yeast.



Sorry Edan, I don't want to sound rude, but let's no make this statements as some people have not clue of what is right and what wrong...

DOC denomination do not apply to pizza. DOC apply to wine. DOP applies to other products such as Fruits & VEG, cheeses, etc...

STG  (Specialitá TRADIZIONALE Garantita- Traditional guaranteed Specialty - Tradition is the word) is the denomination that apply to pizza. The document was published by the Italian Ministry of Agriculture and it is own by the Local Government of Naples (Comune di Napoli) with the support of the two Neapolitan associations VPN and APN. The latest version was amended after a documented complaint (by myself) was sent to the Ministry, and I have an official letter that confirm the use of a starter (PASTA MADRE in Italian or Crisceto in Neapolitan) CAN BE USED within certain limits (to avoid recycling old dough).

The designation should also specify that a proper Neapolitan Oven MUST be used and a proper mixer (Fork or Diving arms, but if it has to be Traditional, Fork was the mixer that was re-developed in Naples specifically to mix pizza dough 40 odds years ago).

The designation also say that cold rises shouldn't be used, why many VPN American members do that? Why the training in US is done on an Hobart mixer for 8 minutes sharp? It is better that I do not continue....

On the other hand you are right, a flavorful pizza can be made using commercial yeast and proper mixing/fermentation technique. In fact some of my favorite pizza in Naples are made with commercial yeast (but there is another theory behind it that I will disclose the day I decide to publish my book-now on hold). However, make no mistake, that a pizza made with Crisceto win 10 folds for his increased qualities... too many to be counted shortly

Saluti

Marco




« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 04:29:31 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline shango

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Re: starters
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 01:17:21 PM »
The latest version was amended after a documented complaint (by myself) was sent to the Ministry, and I have an official letter that confirm the use of a starter (PASTA MADRE in Italian or Crisceto in Neapolitan) CAN BE USED within certain limits (to avoid recycling old dough).


The designation also say that cold rises shouldn't be used, why many VPN American members do that? Why the training in US is done on an Hobart mixer for 8 minutes sharp? It is better that I do not continue....

On the other hand you are right







I had no idea that there had been an amendment.  I would love to see the letter.

According to the document that I have "once the individual dough balls are formed, they are left in rising boxes for a second rising that lasts from 4-6 hours.  By controlling storage temperature, these dough balls can then be used at any time within the following 6 hours."  To me this reads as refrigeration (controlling storage temperature)  But maybe I am wrong....

I do use a Hobart mixer ( which was approved by VPN before the opening of the pizzeria )  I mix my dough for 30 minutes every time and make fresh dough twice daily.


I am sorry you feel that the VPN pizzerias in the states are inferior.  Some of us are trying to follow the rules but updates and any actual communication from the organization itself is minimal to non-existent.

None the less, I believe we make an amazing pizza and I invite you taste it for yourself. 

Marco,
Are you certified as an STG pizzeria?  If so maybe you could help me to improve, as my goal is to serve the best Neapolitan pizze possible.

Cheers,
-E
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: starters
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2006, 02:39:29 PM »

According to the document that I have "once the individual dough balls are formed, they are left in rising boxes for a second rising that lasts from 4-6 hours.  By controlling storage temperature, these dough balls can then be used at any time within the following 6 hours."  To me this reads as refrigeration (controlling storage temperature)  But maybe I am wrong....



Edan,

I have nothing against you, but  I have to keep warning people against the commercial interest of VPN that has nothing to do with preserving authenticity.

The letter is Registered (as any official letter from the Italian Government) with a unique number: Prot. N. 65175 Posiz. Dated 27 July 2004.

I do not like to disclose the details as I will publish the letter in full in my book, but there is a line that read ..."The use of Natural Yeast (AKA WILD) can be included in the specs but needs to include the caracteristics as to avoid old recycled dough being passed for "Natural Yeast"....

Anyway, all the documents produced by VPN, the "Comune" and the Ministry since 1984, calls for room temperature fermentation, ideally in controlled "fermentation room" at 25 C, that is not refrigeration (which would be at around 4C max 10C).

I already had bad reports about VPN America from more then trustworthy sources, but the latest stroke was meeting an American guy at the Pizzafest few weeks ago that had completed the course at Antica. He was shown and told all rubbish stuff... Hobart 8 minutes, forming the disc in the air NYC style, refrigeration etc.... Nothing traditional about that, and certainly the result could not be a Pizza Neapolitan....

I have been fighting on this subject for a number of years now....

I do not own a pizzeria, and work as a Proper Consultant   :chef: with new or already established pizzerias that want to produce authentic pizza Neapolitan. I now also collaborate with a company producing authentic Neapolitan ovens as well as selling mixers and other tools. Recently, I was involved with the opening of Bettola, in Birmingham (details here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3589.msg30313.html#msg30313).

The problems are not in the updates, but at the start with the representative, the training and the approval process... Hobart is not a mixer that should be approved... Any Neapolitan Pizzamaker in Naples will tell you that Planetary mixers should only be used by patisseries to produce shortbread pastry and whisk egg whites.... Also if the guy that train you do not know how to form a disc Neapolitan style, how is someone suppose to learn???? and if the main location doesn't even have a proper oven how can they pretend the members to have it.... Check the posts by Brad, Settebello's owner, about his oven... he has been approved, but He, having spent time in Naples, doesn't approve it himself and I know he got a replacement.... I got much more to say... Anyway, I am trying to get the other association responsible to reppresent the STG , to expand in America. They seam more serious about protecting the product. I will post in due course....

Have you been to Naples? Can you share your view?






« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 02:49:11 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: starters
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2006, 04:49:02 PM »
sorry, I forgot, anyway the disciplinare or designation is not a recipe but a guideline and do not covers details...

Thus the time frame, quantity of flour and other aspects are only approximative./..

Offline shango

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Re: starters
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 05:53:25 PM »
sorry, I forgot, anyway the disciplinare or designation is not a recipe but a guideline and do not covers details...

Thus the time frame, quantity of flour and other aspects are only approximative./..


No disrespect intended, but I am not sure that I am quite getting this statement.  Are you saying that there is no real recipe ( approximative because the amount of time quantity of flour, yeast, etc. because of external factors such as the weather, humidity, ambient temp., etc.); the real art is the discipline, ie; understanding when factors such as ambient temperature, relative humidity and appropriate proofing times have changed (the recipe is always changing slightly).  Or is it something else?

Do you believe that real neapolitan pizze ( STG or DOC ) can be made outside of Naples? 

The starter/fresh yeast thing is somewhat disputed, even in Europe, correct?

Finally, I would like to say that I will be trying some batches of dough with a starter as the leavening here at the restaurant .  I will post comparative pictures of both fresh yeast dough and preferment.  It should be interesting.

Thanks for your input,
-E

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: starters
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 06:06:21 PM »
Yes, there is no real recipe. It is a tradional method which teach you how to obtain the same results varying all the variables, day in day out...


Authentic Neapolitan pizza can be made out of Naples. In fact I made it in US & UK myself. If you also offer certain toppong then you can add the STG (no doc please).


Is not disputed! It is very difficult to manage in a commercial environment unless the pizzaiolo has the real skills to deal with it. Commercial yeast is much easy and can still produce very good results, but none of the old timers will ever dispute the supremacy of Crisceto vs Lievito di Birra.... few still make it that way.










Offline shango

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Re: starters
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2006, 06:13:25 PM »
I am not disputing the quality of the starter method..
We here were under the impression that this was not allowed by the standard of the VPN..
I will be trying this and I am getting excited just thinking about it now...

Yes, there is no real recipe. It is a tradional method which teach you how to obtain the same results varying all the variables, day in and day out











Thank you.  This is what I wanted to hear. 


Two more questions; what about lard?; and , what exactly are you selling?
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