Author Topic: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....  (Read 85426 times)

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Offline n00bie

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) by weight
« Reply #180 on: April 06, 2014, 10:45:34 AM »
Per recent interest, here's Red November Pizza Sauce #2 by weight.  This is the definitive quantitative set based on my initial research into complimentary chemical compounds responsible for flavor and aroma.  If someone were to make a really large batch of this sauce, this would be the set of numbers to use, not the volumetric ones.

1000.000000
tomato puree @ 1.053 g/cc
17.600000
sucrose
8.800000
kosher salt
4.400000
garlic powder
4.400000
onion powder
0.953157
black pepper
0.814342
paprika
0.536131
rosemary
0.532948
oregano
0.481703
basil
0.359930
thyme
0.323250
fennel seed
0.198253
tarragon
0.141065
marjoram
0.059226
parsley

- red.november

Hello. I have made a simple calculator with Microsoft Excel which calculates the amount of herbs based on the input of the tomato puree. I hope it helps everyone here who wanted to try this recipe out, it will save you a lot of time (and errors  :chef:). Now all you have to to is to download the file and open it in Microsoft Excel change the amount of the tomato puree and the form will calculate the herbs for you. I have included the preparation steps along with a link to this topic and credit to the author of this recipe red november.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uas5nbcqltdkkak/RedNovemberSauce.xlsx

Goodluck!


Offline bbqpizza

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) by weight
« Reply #181 on: July 28, 2014, 11:42:42 PM »
Hello. I have made a simple calculator with Microsoft Excel which calculates the amount of herbs based on the input of the tomato puree. I hope it helps everyone here who wanted to try this recipe out, it will save you a lot of time (and errors  :chef:). Now all you have to to is to download the file and open it in Microsoft Excel change the amount of the tomato puree and the form will calculate the herbs for you. I have included the preparation steps along with a link to this topic and credit to the author of this recipe red november.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uas5nbcqltdkkak/RedNovemberSauce.xlsx

Goodluck!

Wow, thank you! I will be using your excel this weekend.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2014, 12:07:13 AM »
Coolio!
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline cheekygeek

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #183 on: November 07, 2014, 12:44:10 PM »
Newbie question. I was able to locate 6-in-1 in No. 10 cans from a local restaurant supply business (They have a cash and carry store in my town). They had to look it up and had it filed in the computer under Tomato Paste (apparently) but they went and found me a case, so now I have 6 No. 10 cans. So I'm committed to making a good sauce with 6-in1.  :-D I love the idea of this recipe - the no cooking and the MAE method of opening up the dried herbs.

Here is my question. I'm only making a pizza or two at time, so the No. 10 can is a bit more than I need.  :angel: I have determined that freezing the 6-in-1 in zip lock bags works well (based on other people's experience). So I should be freezing the 6-in-1 in zip lock bags and then make each batch of sauce with MAE separately, right? (In other words, I DON'T want to make a huge batch of seasoned pizza sauce and then freeze THAT, right?)

Thanks in advance for any clarifications. (And thanks for the spreadsheet!)

Offline amiart

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #184 on: November 08, 2014, 12:16:00 PM »
As I mentioned in a recent post, Little Caesar's uses cold sauce preparation.  This is the preferred method of making sauces.  I was going to save this for a motherload post coming soon, but here it is now - straight from the research laboratory:

The two greatest concerns with cold sauce preparation are: 1) enzyme activation of pectin 2) full flavor extraction from seasonings.  Both of these problems can be be solved so simply, you're probably going to wonder why you haven't been doing this all along.  When preparing the sauce from a tomato paste base, add all the seasonings to the water portion in a microwave safe measuring cup.  Microwave the water-seasoning mixture at 30% power for 2 minutes.  There are a few things going on here that are very important.  First, the enzyme commonly found in Allium bulbs (e.g. onion, garlic) breaks down and no longer poses a threat of reacting with the pectin in tomato.  Second, microwaves (the energy, not the machine) superheat the cytoplasm causing the cell walls to rupture and release the alkaloids and resins (the flavor molecules you're after).  Believe it or not, a lot of academic research has gone into microwave-based alkaloid extractions.  This is a really good application of science developed in industries not related to food.  All one has to do next is allow the water-seasoning mixture to cool to room temperature before adding it to the paste.  Refrigerate immediately and for at least 6 hours before using.

I wanted to also make clear one of the main reasons cold sauce preparation is considered superior by a lot of restauranteurs.  Commercial tomato product processing plants evaporate tomato puree under a vacuum and temperatures no higher than 140 F.  Unless you have a vacuum distillation apparatus at home, you will never be able to achieve the same concentration as canned tomato paste without sacrificing some of the flavor.

No offense, but Little Caesar's is NOT very good. 

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #185 on: November 08, 2014, 03:11:02 PM »
Newbie question. I was able to locate 6-in-1 in No. 10 cans from a local restaurant supply business (They have a cash and carry store in my town). They had to look it up and had it filed in the computer under Tomato Paste (apparently) but they went and found me a case, so now I have 6 No. 10 cans. So I'm committed to making a good sauce with 6-in1.  :-D I love the idea of this recipe - the no cooking and the MAE method of opening up the dried herbs.

Here is my question. I'm only making a pizza or two at time, so the No. 10 can is a bit more than I need.  :angel: I have determined that freezing the 6-in-1 in zip lock bags works well (based on other people's experience). So I should be freezing the 6-in-1 in zip lock bags and then make each batch of sauce with MAE separately, right? (In other words, I DON'T want to make a huge batch of seasoned pizza sauce and then freeze THAT, right?)

Thanks in advance for any clarifications. (And thanks for the spreadsheet!)
I would not freeze the nuked spices in with the sauce......as they always say, fresh is best so one would think your pizza sauce will taste best if you add the fresh nuked spices to your thawed sauce bag.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #186 on: November 08, 2014, 09:01:43 PM »
Michael;
A good or great sauce doesn't need to be complicated at all. When I make a true sauce I use nothing more than the best crushed tomatoes that I can find locally. Before I apply the sauce I lightly brush the dough skin with olive oil, then apply some crushed or diced garlic, add a few fresh basil leaves and then add the crushed tomatoes. Great flavor, fresh taste!
My all time favorite is to prepare the dough skin in the same manner but instead of using crushed tomato I like to use sliced of ripe, garden fresh tomato and just lay them over the dough, no need to try to get full coverage, 60 to 70% coverage is about right. In the winter when I can't get ripe tomatoes my go to is Stanislaus 74/40 Tomato Filets, and if I can't snag a can of those, my next best option is to use canned whole plum tomatoes which I tear apart with my fingers, lightly drain, and use in place of the fresh tomato slices. This approach gives you both the texture of the tomato and in my opinion, more importantly, it gives you a burst of fresh tomato flavor as you bite into those thicker pieces of tomato which you just can't get from a typical sauce.
When it comes to cooking a sauce, I am a firm believer in never cooking a pizza sauce, pasta sauce yes, but pizza sauce, never. All of those great aromas you smell when the sauce is cooking are gone forever, you will never taste them on your pizza. I do believe in making my sauce on the day prior to use to allow the flavors to release and meld, but the sauce will get all the cooking it needs when the pizza is baked. Very few pizzerias cook their sauce due to potential food safety issues as well as issues with the health department and the 4-hour rule (states that a product can remain at a temperature capable of supporting microbial growth for a maximum accumulated time of 4-hours (40 to 160F). This means that a sauce would need to be cooked to above 160 and then cooled to 40F or below all within a total accumulated time of 4-hours.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #187 on: November 08, 2014, 09:44:35 PM »
Michael;
A good or great sauce doesn't need to be complicated at all. When I make a true sauce I use nothing more than the best crushed tomatoes that I can find locally. Before I apply the sauce I lightly brush the dough skin with olive oil, then apple some crushed or diced garlic, add a few fresh basil leaves and then add the crushed tomatoes. Great flavor, fresh taste!
My all time favorite is to prepare the dough skin in the same manner but instead of using crushed tomato I like to use sliced of ripe, garden fresh tomato and just lay them over the dough, no need to try to get full coverage, 60 to 70% coverage is about right. In the winter when I can't get ripe tomatoes my go to is Stanislaus 74/40 Tomato Filets, and if I can't snag a can of those, my next best option is to use canned whole plum tomatoes which I tear apart with my fingers, lightly drain, and use in place of the fresh tomato slices. This approach gives you both the texture of the tomato and in my opinion, more importantly, it gives you a burst of fresh tomato flavor as you bite into those thicker pieces of tomato which you just can't get from a typical sauce.
When it comes to cooking a sauce, I am a firm believer in never cooking a pizza sauce, pasta sauce yes, but pizza sauce, never. All of those great aromas you smell when the sauce is cooking are gone forever, you will never taste them on your pizza. I do believe in making my sauce on the day prior to use to allow the flavors to release and meld, but the sauce will get all the cooking it needs when the pizza is baked. Very few pizzerias cook their sauce due to potential food safety issues as well as issues with the health department and the 4-hour rule (states that a product can remain at a temperature capable of supporting microbial growth for a maximum accumulated time of 4-hours (40 to 160F). This means that a sauce would need to be cooked to above 160 and then cooled to 40F or below all within a total accumulated time of 4-hours.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Best post on tomatoes I`ve seen....thanks Tom.   :chef:
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Offline cheekygeek

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2014, 12:35:43 PM »
For any other newbies, like me, that want to follow the outstanding advice in this thread (and make use of the "by weight" measurements of this - and other recipes) I thought I would mention that a great millgram precision scale (according to the user reviews) is this little number, available for as little as $21 shipped.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ESHDGOI/?tag=pizzamaking-20

This will get you .001 precision on your spice measurements, REALLY useful for those using the microwave herb/spice method.

Also, for those looking for budget pizza stone, I found unglazed Quarry Tile 6 x 6 x 1/2 on sale for .39 each this week at my local Menards. This gives me a 18" x 24" stone area on the bottom of my commercial gas oven for about $5. I intend to do a "scientific" test of the temperatures I can reach over time using an infrared temp gun. (These are also quite useful tools for the home baker/candymaker/etc.) and quite inexpensive. http://www.amazon.com/Nubee%C2%AE-Temperature-Non-contact-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B00CVHIJDK/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I apologize if munging up this thread on cooked/uncooked sauce is not "kosher" but I do feel that this is a seminal pizzamaking.com thread and that these thoughts will prove useful to someone looking for the tools that they need to actually accomplish the precision found in this recipe (by weight).

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #189 on: November 11, 2014, 12:02:18 PM »
I am of the philosophy that it really depends on the tomato product you are using and what kind of pizza you are striving for.  My observation is that >80% of the NY street pizzerias use the same identical process now and consider it as "rule" which creates an industry of generic conformist pies, which is sad because I sure wouldn't mind trying out different kinds of pizzas with different sauces and preparation.  I've seen this happen with DOP obsessed Naples wood fire oven pies.  Deviate, and you pay the consequences of the Naples Nazi pizza committee, which is a total shame.  I tried a square at Artichoke's last night, and the waitress told me the sauce is definitely pre-cooked.  I found the sauce to be much more complex and had more depth than applying tomato straight from can. 

Additionally, people could identify a pizzeria blindfolded by their sauce in the past as each pizzeria made their pies a bit differently, there was more individuality, more character between them.  As far as cooked/uncooked is concerned, all canned products are cooked before they are packed.  They are simmered during the skinning process in their processing plants.  The very nature of a tomato paste, is tomatoes that have been simmered down for hours and then canned.  I grow San Marzano Redorta tomatoes on my roofdeck garden.  If I were to peel the tomatoes and crush them, drain them the best I can by pressing and then try to make a pizza sauce straight from a fresh tomato, it will still have too much water.  They need to be simmered and water needs to be further extracted out or else you will end up with a very runny pie.  So, I wouldn't get too caught up on the cooked/uncooked thing.   Simmering a can of San Marzano for 30 minutes will NOT destroy the flavor of the tomato.  That is a myth.

Also, there were plenty of pizzerias in the past that simmered their pizza sauces with fats.  People don't do that as often, because it's a hassle.  And there are just so many permutations of preparing tomatoes for sauce.. One could simmer down canned tomatoes with other ingredients, and also mix in another can of coursely chopped tomatoes for brightness and texture.  I respect that pizza sauce can be simple, but it can also be complicated and excellent.

In summary, let's not pretend with the idea that canned is fresh.  It simply isn't.  Canning tomato is a form of preservation of an already cooked ingredient.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 12:49:45 PM by Arctic Pizza »


Offline David Esq.

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #190 on: November 12, 2014, 10:18:55 PM »
Some would say a canned tomato is fresher than a store bought tomato because it was canned shortly after picking at height of ripeness and not picked unripe and gassed to preserve it for market.

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #191 on: November 12, 2014, 10:21:24 PM »
Some would say a canned tomato is fresher than a store bought tomato because it was canned shortly after picking at height of ripeness and not picked unripe and gassed to preserve it for market.

I would agree, but it is cooked nonetheless.

Offline cheekygeek

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #192 on: November 13, 2014, 05:56:07 PM »
I would agree, but it is cooked nonetheless.

I don't know if you've read the whole thread or not, but the 2nd post makes the same point you are making. In the context of this thread "cooked vs uncooked" refers only to the sauce-making stage that most of us go through. We know the canned products have been cooked. And we know it cooks on the pizza. The point of discussion is whether cooking is also necessary in middle sauce-making stage. The point of microwave assisted extraction (as in Red November's recipe #2) is to make the answer "no".
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 06:11:23 PM by cheekygeek »

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #193 on: November 13, 2014, 07:15:03 PM »
I don't know if you've read the whole thread or not, but the 2nd post makes the same point you are making. In the context of this thread "cooked vs uncooked" refers only to the sauce-making stage that most of us go through. We know the canned products have been cooked. And we know it cooks on the pizza. The point of discussion is whether cooking is also necessary in middle sauce-making stage. The point of microwave assisted extraction (as in Red November's recipe #2) is to make the answer "no".

That is true, it is not required to cook sauce in the middle sauce stage.  But uncooked isn't a rule either as many claim.  I just found it funny how people will go to lengths of nuking herbs in a microwave to make sure tomatoes remain "uncooked"
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 07:41:15 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #194 on: November 13, 2014, 09:40:33 PM »
I just found it funny how people will go to lengths of nuking herbs in a microwave to make sure tomatoes remain "uncooked"

Arctic Pizza,

If I would take my market pizza sauce and cook it, it would taste altogether different, plain or baked on a pizza.  The MAE extraction of herbs (garlic included) and oil doesn't take much time at all.  Tom Lehmann once send me a PM saying that the MAE extraction is the same as sautéing ingredients in oil. The oil with added ingredients then helps to give the pizza more aroma and taste.

Did you read about Les's method of making pizza sauce?

Norma
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Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #195 on: November 13, 2014, 09:48:14 PM »
Arctic Pizza,

If I would take my market pizza sauce and cook it, it would taste altogether different, plain or baked on a pizza.  The MAE extraction of herbs (garlic included) and oil doesn't take much time at all.  Tom Lehmann once send me a PM saying that the MAE extraction is the same as sautéing ingredients in oil. The oil with added ingredients then helps to give the pizza more aroma and taste.

Did you read about Les's method of making pizza sauce?

Norma

The times you cooked tomatoes on a stovetop, did you add oil?  Fats will transform tomatoes when cooked.  If you simmer canned tomatoes for <30-45 minutes without oil, you won't know the difference.  Canned tomatoes are cooked tomatoes in it's own water.

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #196 on: November 13, 2014, 09:53:05 PM »
Arctic Pizza,

If I would take my market pizza sauce and cook it, it would taste altogether different, plain or baked on a pizza.  The MAE extraction of herbs (garlic included) and oil doesn't take much time at all.  Tom Lehmann once send me a PM saying that the MAE extraction is the same as sautéing ingredients in oil. The oil with added ingredients then helps to give the pizza more aroma and taste.

Did you read about Les's method of making pizza sauce?

Norma

I pick over 200lb of tomatoes from my roofdeck every summer/fall.  They are all simmered down before they are canned with nothing else, no oil, no flavors.  If you used absolutely fresh tomatoes from the vine, pureed them and added them into your pizza, you'd have a completely different product than the canned tomatoes that you currently use.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #197 on: November 13, 2014, 09:58:54 PM »
Arctic Pizza,

If I would take my market pizza sauce and cook it, it would taste altogether different, plain or baked on a pizza.  The MAE extraction of herbs (garlic included) and oil doesn't take much time at all.  Tom Lehmann once send me a PM saying that the MAE extraction is the same as sautéing ingredients in oil. The oil with added ingredients then helps to give the pizza more aroma and taste.

Norma
Norma,

What Tom mentioned to you is similar to what a former member, Pizza Shark, used and that I quoted in Reply 5 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg31883.html#msg31883 . However, if you read Reply 6 by November, you will see that he considered the use of microwaves, as opposed to boiling, to be a more efficient method.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #198 on: November 13, 2014, 10:06:14 PM »
Norma,

What Tom mentioned to you is similar to what a former member, Pizza Shark, used and that I quoted in Reply 5 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg31883.html#msg31883 . However, if you read Reply 6 by November, you will see that he considered the use of microwaves, as opposed to boiling, to be a more efficient method.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing your post and the one after that by November.  I trust what November posted.  He is the smartest member I know of on this forum. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #199 on: November 13, 2014, 10:17:26 PM »
I pick over 200lb of tomatoes from my roofdeck every summer/fall.  They are all simmered down before they are canned with nothing else, no oil, no flavors.  If you used absolutely fresh tomatoes from the vine, pureed them and added them into your pizza, you'd have a completely different product than the canned tomatoes that you currently use.

Arctic Pizza,

I have made many sauces with fresh tomatoes I grow.  Les's sauce is one sauce I made with fresh tomatoes from my garden at this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11539.0.html and at Reply 48 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11539.msg107657.html#msg107657 and other places on that thread.

I know how fresh sauces taste good, but that is too expensive to make for market.  I have had many customers tell me that my market sauce is unique, and customers like it very much. 

I have simmered fresh tomatoes down and canned them.

I guess it all comes down to what every member likes.

Norma
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