Author Topic: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....  (Read 76282 times)

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Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #160 on: February 18, 2010, 08:26:34 PM »
I posted a comment on uncooked concasse of tomatoes...Cut or test Camparis from Costco as mentioned in my comment...It ties DOPs, beat Muir Glen and stomped on S and W....These were compared on the same pizzas side by side...6 of 6 people agreed with the testing...Less is more, try it you will love it...Randy
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.


Offline Steve973

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2010, 11:07:41 PM »
To me, cooked sauces end up tasting like pasta sauces.  When you saute onions and garlic in some olive oil and then add tomatoes, you can add any amount of spices, but it will always taste like pasta sauce to me at this point.  To each his/her own, though!
"Right here, right now, from the very beginning, there is only one thing. Constantly clear and unexplained, having never been born and having never died, it cannot be named or described." - Zen Master So Sahn

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #162 on: March 09, 2010, 05:50:34 PM »
To me, cooked sauces end up tasting like pasta sauces.  When you saute onions and garlic in some olive oil and then add tomatoes, you can add any amount of spices, but it will always taste like pasta sauce to me at this point.  To each his/her own, though!
I feel the same way. Simmering it changes the taste of the sauce and at that point, it's fine for pasta, but not pizza.

I prefer the fresher flavor of uncooked crushed tomatoes.



I have a very simple recipe for sauce.

crushed tomatoes.
garlic powder
onion powder
dried basil
italian seasoning
kosher salt
cracked black pepper
pinch of sugar

All seasoning done to taste.
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Offline Morgan

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2)
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2013, 04:46:10 AM »
I decided to finally release my #2 pizza sauce into the wild, and figured I would put it here since the instructions for handling the herbs and spices in the microwave are already in this thread.  First the ingredients, then a few notes, then a few instructions, and finally a few more notes.

Red November Sauce (#2)
 28 oz   11.3 NTSS (1.053 g/cc) tomato puree
 14 g   sucrose
   7 g   salt
3.5 g   herbs & spices (see below)
3.5 g   garlic powder
3.5 g   onion powder

herbs & spices (dried & crushed)
  earthy component
    4 vu oregano
    2 vu marjoram
    1 vu parsley
  sweet component
    4 vu basil
    2 vu tarragon
    1 vu fennel seed
  savory component
    2 vu rosemary
    2 vu thyme
  spicy component
    1 vu paprika
    1 vu black pepper

Notes:
   "vu" stands for volume unit since the measurements are expressed in ratios. If measured accurately and the herbs are crushed sufficiently, the total mass should be 3.5g when 1 vu = 1/8 tsp.
Instructions:
   Add the sucrose (table sugar) and salt to the sauce first and whisk.  In a separate sealable container measure and mix all the herbs and spices as well as the garlic and onion powders.  I recommend choosing a volume unit that allows you to match your quantity of puree exactly.  Trying to divide the herbs and spices after mixing will lead to uneven distribution.  Seal the container and shake well.  Pour the mixture into a microwaveable container such as a small Pyrex measuring cup.  Add just enough filtered water to the mixture so that it is completely moist, but not suspended in water.  Follow the microwave instructions in my two previous posts.  Add the herbs and spices to the puree.  Whisk and place in refrigerator to chill for at least 6 hours before using.
Notes:
   As you might be able to tell, the herbs and spices are deliberately matched according to a specific flavor profile.  There's a lot I could say about the reasoning behind the seasoning, as it took a long time to investigate each herb and spice in order to give it a profile component value, but it all still comes down to how each person thinks it tastes.  The more experienced on this site should already know this, but be sure the puree has no added substances (e.g. salt, citric acid, seasonings) if you buy it canned.  I hope I covered everything.

- red.november

Do i even dare to try this with crushed and drained tomatoes ?

Offline norma427

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2)
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2013, 08:01:23 AM »
Do i even dare to try this with crushed and drained tomatoes ?


Morgan,

If you are interested you might look at this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17013.0.html and especially Peterís post at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17013.msg165705.html#msg165705

Norma
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #165 on: February 15, 2013, 09:07:21 AM »
Here are a couple things that I learned about sauce.
1) You know how good the kitchen smells when you're cooking a sauce? Those aromatics are being driven off from your sauce, never to be smelled again. Moral of the story, don't cook the sauce since it will be cooked all it needs to be on the pie during the normal baking of the pizza, and it will actually provide a better flavor. From a commercial perspective cooking the sauce presents some problems too. There is the 4-hour food safety rule which basically states that a product cannot be allowed to be at a temperature that will support microbial growth (lower than 140F and greater than 40F)) for an accumulated time not to exceed 4-hours. When cooking a sauce it MUST be heated to a temperature of 160F or more, then it must be cooled, and the time it spends in that critical temperature range (40F to 140F) erodes the 4-hour rule time period.
2) Oil of any kind in the sauce helps to entrap the flavors released during baking of the pizza, potentially resulting in a better flavor profile. Have you ever eaten a piece of cake taken home from a party where there were smokers? On the following day the cake and icing would have a very decided smoke flavor. This is why the butter container in the fridge always has a cover on it. It it isn't covered the butter will pick up and aroma in the fridge. No, sauce doesn't need the added oil, but if your sauce is too oily I'm betting that you have added too much oil. Many sauce formulas contain at lease some oil for the reason cited above, but in my experience the amount of oil seldom exceeds 2 to 3% of the total sauce weight.
3) For use on pasta, always precook the sauce since it won't get cooked upon application to the pasta, unless you're making lasagna, then at least for me, I'm back to using uncooked sauce.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #166 on: February 15, 2013, 11:42:57 AM »

2) Oil of any kind in the sauce helps to entrap the flavors released during baking of the pizza, potentially resulting in a better flavor profile.

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for posting about a little oil in the sauce is a good thing and helps to entrap the flavors released during baking.  At least I have been doing something right for the sauce for my NY style pizzas.  I do microwave fresh crushed garlic with herbs and a little red pepper flakes in olive oil and add a little to my sauce and then let it sit overnight.  I donít recall ever reading before that a little oil in the sauce actually helps during the bake.  You sure know about everything related to pizza.   :chef:

Norma
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Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #167 on: February 15, 2013, 01:23:19 PM »
Pizzamaking.com is like a gold mine. I've been reading this forum for many years but somehow I'd never read this thread before, and I'd never seen November's post releasing his Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) "into the wild", which he did way back in October of 2006! The thread had been dormant for about three years when Morgan posted a question, thus leading me to read the whole thread.  And what a great thread it is!  I learned about Microwave-Assisted Extraction (MAE), an industrial engineering technique for releasing flavors from herbs and spices, I became introduced to November, a truly brilliant fellow, who had many interesting things to say way back in 2006 (and probably still does, though not much here on pizzamaking.com), and there was even a bit of drama, when a not-so-friendly spat developed between November and SD Girl involving the issue of how long to keep spices in the pantry.  Quite a ride. So thank you Morgan for posting on this thread. I think I will give November's Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) a whirl. 

I wonder what Red November Pizza Sauce (#1) is like? 

All hail this great forum!

TinRoof

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #168 on: February 15, 2013, 02:41:16 PM »
Norma;
After 45+ years of eating, sleeping, breathing, researching, and consulting on pizza, a little has to eventually rub off.
My job has always been fairly easy since I've got all the tools and toys one could wish for at my disposal for making, developing, and researching pizza. You and all of the other folks here are the truly innovative and creative individuals as you are all researching the different aspects of pizza, developing different styles of pizza, reverse engineering pizzas, and just plain making great pizzas all without the big and expensive toys that we work with. Now, that's a challenge. It is also interesting to note that there is a strong interest displayed here to make what we like to call "artisan" pizzas, be it in a home oven, or a wood fired oven out in the back yard. For what it's worth, this closely mimics some of the direction that pizza industry is now going in as we are beginning to see more artisan type pizza offerings in the frozen food cases, and pizzerias, in general, are asking more questions about how to make them. So the knowledge that I'm gaining here helps to shorten my learning curve too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2013, 04:50:57 PM »
Pizzamaking.com is like a gold mine. I've been reading this forum for many years but somehow I'd never read this thread before, and I'd never seen November's post releasing his Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) "into the wild", which he did way back in October of 2006! The thread had been dormant for about three years when Morgan posted a question, thus leading me to read the whole thread.  And what a great thread it is!  I learned about Microwave-Assisted Extraction (MAE), an industrial engineering technique for releasing flavors from herbs and spices, I became introduced to November, a truly brilliant fellow, who had many interesting things to say way back in 2006 (and probably still does, though not much here on pizzamaking.com), and there was even a bit of drama, when a not-so-friendly spat developed between November and SD Girl involving the issue of how long to keep spices in the pantry.  Quite a ride. So thank you Morgan for posting on this thread. I think I will give November's Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) a whirl.  

I wonder what Red November Pizza Sauce (#1) is like?  

All hail this great forum!

TinRoof

This! Have to take this sauce for a spin and see how it goes. I'm not too picky about the sauce, just basic organic Italian crushed tomatoes with salt, sugar, herbs and black pepper. Sometimes i add olive oil, balsamic vinegar and lemon juice. I am skeptic about this sauce, but I'm going to test it anyway, it is different than i ever tried for sure so there must be totally different taste to it. I think i use more spices normally, but who knows maybe this is the best sauce there is.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 04:53:56 PM by Morgan »


Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2013, 06:02:35 PM »
Norma;
After 45+ years of eating, sleeping, breathing, researching, and consulting on pizza, a little has to eventually rub off.
My job has always been fairly easy since I've got all the tools and toys one could wish for at my disposal for making, developing, and researching pizza. You and all of the other folks here are the truly innovative and creative individuals as you are all researching the different aspects of pizza, developing different styles of pizza, reverse engineering pizzas, and just plain making great pizzas all without the big and expensive toys that we work with. Now, that's a challenge. It is also interesting to note that there is a strong interest displayed here to make what we like to call "artisan" pizzas, be it in a home oven, or a wood fired oven out in the back yard. For what it's worth, this closely mimics some of the direction that pizza industry is now going in as we are beginning to see more artisan type pizza offerings in the frozen food cases, and pizzerias, in general, are asking more questions about how to make them. So the knowledge that I'm gaining here helps to shorten my learning curve too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Forty-five years is a long time to be eating, sleeping, breathing, researching and consulting on pizza.  I can understand how you know so much, but I donít think I could keep it all in my brain like you do. 

I agree this forum is a great place to learn about anything related to pizza, but I have also learned a lot from you.  Thanks!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2013, 06:14:55 PM »
This! Have to take this sauce for a spin and see how it goes. I'm not too picky about the sauce, just basic organic Italian crushed tomatoes with salt, sugar, herbs and black pepper. Sometimes i add olive oil, balsamic vinegar and lemon juice. I am skeptic about this sauce, but I'm going to test it anyway, it is different than i ever tried for sure so there must be totally different taste to it. I think i use more spices normally, but who knows maybe this is the best sauce there is.
Less!....is often times more than enough.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2013, 06:23:27 PM »
Less!....is often times more than enough.

There might be part of the truth here, i will make it next week and post pics of the sauce and pie here. I'm not going crazy with the measures so digital scale, spoon and eye is my way. Same time have to test 00 flours with sugar and oil(for browning), maybe one patch of flour mix too.

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #173 on: February 15, 2013, 06:50:15 PM »
This! Have to take this sauce for a spin and see how it goes. I'm not too picky about the sauce, just basic organic Italian crushed tomatoes with salt, sugar, herbs and black pepper. Sometimes i add olive oil, balsamic vinegar and lemon juice. I am skeptic about this sauce, but I'm going to test it anyway, it is different than i ever tried for sure so there must be totally different taste to it. I think i use more spices normally, but who knows maybe this is the best sauce there is.

Morgan,

In my opinion November's sauce is very good.  I am just too lazy sometimes to make it.  Steve (Ev) does make and use it for all of his NY style pizzas and the sauce tastes fantastic to me on his pies.  It is a lot of ingredients, but November is very smart and knew what he was doing when creating his sauce.  November's intelligence is way above mine.

Norma
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Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #174 on: February 16, 2013, 03:11:44 AM »
November's intelligence is way above mine.

Norma

There is definitely some molecule gastronomy or secret mathematic formulas used when this sauce has developed :pizza:

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #175 on: February 16, 2013, 05:40:29 AM »
November's sauce has been in heavy rotation for me since I discovered it a few years ago.  November truly put some time into balancing the profile of this sauce well.

I just made a batch of his sauce.  However, I used some whole peeled San Marzano style tomatoes (so I added less sugar and a touch more salt.  And I used less than the 28 oz. can, drained some water off.  However, I also added some tomato paste.

This sauce is truly magical.

Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2013, 03:07:31 PM »
Used no2 today and it was pretty good. To master this sauce i would have to buy better digital scale for the ingredients, i made only half of the patch so you have to use your eye for measuring.

Offline ejomby

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #177 on: December 09, 2013, 06:46:01 PM »
I've been lurking here for a while, and my pizzas have changed dramatically since then.  I love this thread.  I like the ease of simple no-cook sauce that still has all the versatility of a well made slow-cooked one, while still maintaining the freshness and brightness of the tomatoes.

That being said, I think there's a question that still needs to be asked. Namely, what role the sauce plays in the whole taste of a pizza.  And where should certain flavors reside?  That's what I'd like to know. 

For example, I know that when I make a hamburger, if I ever use mayonnaise and tomatoes, it's best to put those 2 next to each other.  They do something magical together. I've also found that putting oregano directly on the mozzarella absolutely changes the flavor of the cheese in a way that is different than putting it into a sauce. Or, for example, if we like thyme, oregano, garlic, sage, why not bake it into the crust?  Or infuse it into an olive oil that we drizzle on as a finishing oil? What's the difference to the palate? You can perfect a sauce on its own, but the question still remains how it works into the whole of the pizza experience. So these are some of the questions I like to struggle with.

So here's where I'm starting right now.  I'm just taking a can of tomatoes, crushing them, and then putting them onto the pizza.  So far, that's worked pretty well.  Now onto more experiments! :)

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #178 on: December 09, 2013, 11:26:06 PM »
I've been lurking here for a while, and my pizzas have changed dramatically since then.  I love this thread.  I like the ease of simple no-cook sauce that still has all the versatility of a well made slow-cooked one, while still maintaining the freshness and brightness of the tomatoes.

That being said, I think there's a question that still needs to be asked. Namely, what role the sauce plays in the whole taste of a pizza.  And where should certain flavors reside?  That's what I'd like to know. 

For example, I know that when I make a hamburger, if I ever use mayonnaise and tomatoes, it's best to put those 2 next to each other.  They do something magical together. I've also found that putting oregano directly on the mozzarella absolutely changes the flavor of the cheese in a way that is different than putting it into a sauce. Or, for example, if we like thyme, oregano, garlic, sage, why not bake it into the crust?  Or infuse it into an olive oil that we drizzle on as a finishing oil? What's the difference to the palate? You can perfect a sauce on its own, but the question still remains how it works into the whole of the pizza experience. So these are some of the questions I like to struggle with.

So here's where I'm starting right now.  I'm just taking a can of tomatoes, crushing them, and then putting them onto the pizza.  So far, that's worked pretty well.  Now onto more experiments! :)
I feel the tomato sauce is the ingredient that steadies and drives the ship, if you will.
After any infused oils or crusts, fresh, quality toppings, etc. are said and done....a well made pie, any pie, will always leave,at least partially, in the back of your mind..."that tomato sauce".

I like the way you are thinking here, experimenting/thinking about the effects various layering/combinations of seasonings and toppings create their different end results to the "whole"......but at the end of the day I feel that the sauce is the Boss and you are very correct in leaving it simple, alone...to do it's job/magic.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline midwestchilehead

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #179 on: March 09, 2014, 11:31:31 PM »
When I worked at Ken's Pizza way back in the day, they told us not to add more than the portion-controlled amounts of toppings because all the flavor is in the sauce.  I wish I would have swiped one of those spice packets we added to crushed tomatoes to make the sauce and had the spices and ratios analyzed.  I loved that sauce, but will give November's a spin too.
From somewhere in the Midwest